Give Feedback on initial House Batt charging upgrade plan

[trickedyj]

LONG TIME reader, first time poster.

I have an entry level 2006 25ft Jayco Class C (E450) that is used for weekend camping, boat towing, road tripping, and some tailgating. It is stored in a non-electric barn.

I want to do a house batt upgrade, I have done quite a lot of research but you never can do too much. Please let me know your opinions on my logic below:

Why Upgrade?
- 1 to 3 day reliable boondocking capability (most time not spent at site)
- I need good charging to house batts while on the road since I'm not plugged in during storage and that is 75% of the year
- I need better charging to house batts when I am plugged in

Total upgrade to be done all at once, and to be under $500 (I'll do install work, fab up new batt boxes, etc):

- Upgrade House Batt from Marine 12V battery to 2 6V Batts (about 220 amp hours) (Sams Club/Costco ie Duracells ie Deka ie East Penn))

- Upgrade my standard IOTA DSL-30 with the IQ4 3-stage charger adapter
http://www.iotaengineering.com/iq.htm

- Replace my 12V 921 bulbs with 921 LEDs

- Here's the good stuff: Remove Diode isolator between alternator and house battery and install ProMariner ProIsoCharge 180. In short this unit will let my alternator feed my house batts a good charge unlike stock isolators which have a hearty voltage drop (as I have read even a slight voltage drop will limit and hamper your ability to quality charge your house batts from your engine.)
Two different units (one is Euro one is US)
http://promariner.com/products/prolsocharge-series/
http://sterling-power-usa.com/ProSplit-RZeroVoltDropMarineBatteryIsolator-9.aspx

- Upgrade cabling where necessary

- What else?

Let me know what you think!

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Vehicle manufacturers design alternators to suit the CHASSIS. How many thousands of 12SI 66 amp alternators have I overhauled on 80's largest Bounders and other Fleetwood products, Southwind, Winnebago, you name it. I replaced rotors to the 7273 78 amp model minimum.

Sal is absolutely correct about voltage regulators. They use normally internal temperature compensation some of the newer rigs use ECU voltage regulator especially those with MoPar chassis. There has never been in the history of USA alternator manufacturers a FLAT COMPENSATION voltage regulator fitted to a production motor vehicle. With the 3G, 4G and 6G Ford alternators it is normal to see a .7 volt slump from 0C to 150C.

Up until around seven years ago THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of alternators used on cruising sailboats was a custom highly modified 10DN Delco alternator. Rotors finished cut to .012" rotor stator airgap, and Delta 12 gauge 4/3 hand wound stators - many used the 12 SI wider stator lamination stack. Rectifiers (1/2" press fit) were changed from 25-ampere 100 volt rated units to Motorola 5012 50-ampere 200 volt. These old "Lestek" rectifiers had red printing on the bottom of the can for cathode case rectifiers and black for anode case rectifiers.

Then Ford with their rectified WYE 3G alternator hit the market. It charged much better at low speeds. Any OEM alternator that uses a rectified WYE stator has EIGHT rectifiers rather than SIX.

Next, many aftermarket alternator peddlers tried the large frame older Ford 100 amp alternator, others DENSO frame alternators that are modified.

The latest generation is a real humdinger. Alternators with HAIRPIN stators much like the old 50DN Delco bus (mostly gear driven) alternators. These guys use 125 amp stud mounted rectifiers with 6 gauge leads.

But whomever made the comment that automotive technology is ice-age is spot on. IF and I mean IF an alternator is not controlled by an ECU it can be modified to accept an "A" circuit cruising sailboat external voltage regulator. Three-stage with equalization circuit. But there is a catch. Equalizing voltage is far too high to trust onboard electronics to deal with it.

Hope This Helps

[pianotuna]

Hi Salvo,

I do get it. But I also get in excess of 70 amps for sure, when I load up the system. I shut down the charging path when voltage at the dash reaches 12.9

[Salvo]

After all these years, you still don't get it. The alternator is not effective for the same reasons a single stage converter isn't effective. It's all about voltage! Battery charge quickly tapers because there's not enough voltage.

Sal

[pianotuna]

Hi Salvo,

Alternator charging is a disappointment because the house batteries are rarely hungry because solar is "out of this world" effective for you.

My hall effect ammeter maxes out at 70 amps--and I do see it displaying an error. One of my charging paths is the oem. The other connects to the chassis battery. I have automatic circuit breakers on each to limit them to 50 amps, and I do have manual control over them, so sometimes I only operate one, and sometimes neither if I'm pushing hard with the inverter. When I'm limiting charging I do ten minutes on and fifteen minutes off.

[Salvo]

I'm sure you'll get some improvement when wiring directly to the alternator (with or w/o the 'gadget').

I have an amp meter installed in my rig that measures house battery current. I've found that alternator charging is a disappointment. The alternator voltage doesn't get high enough. A larger amp alternator won't help. I added a switch that disables the alternator charging the house batteries. 99% of the time the switch is in the disable position. My house batteries are charged by solar. Solar is leaps and bounds more effective. Return the gadget and put that money in good use & get solar.

Sal

trickedyj wrote:

- I am planning on running 4 awg from alternator to ProMariner, 4 awg to house bats, and oem already in place for chassis battery (6 awg).

[trickedyj]

pianotuna wrote:
Hi trickedy,
I do not know about marine alternators--but the one on an E-450 will let out the magic blue smoke if it is ever disconnected from a battery, when the motor is running.

"Marine" alternators are just GM 7.4L big block alternators in most cases (such as mine). (Diesel is totally different). Same rule applies on the switch on boats (don't use off while operating engine). With that in mind I'm thinking the ProMariner unit has this covered. I should have my initial voltage readings this weekend. I probably won't have the post install readings for a few weeks.

- I am planning on running 4 awg from alternator to ProMariner, 4 awg to house bats, and oem already in place for chassis battery (6 awg).

- If I smoke the alternator I'll still be smiling knowing with the right gear I can charge my house batts in no time with the engine. (heck some places I don't dare start my onan for fear I'll be hated, a bit more gas but the v10 at idle is pretty quiet!

[pianotuna]

Hi trickedy,

The ECU will not work as you hope.

I have to manually limit the amps being drawn by the inverter. It's easy as pie to know when. Just monitor the voltage at the dash cigarette lighter. If it drops below 13.2, it is a concern. If it goes to 12.9, you are most likely drawing too many amps.

I use the inverter to run the electric hot water heater. That draws approximately 120 amps.

Again, since your battery bank is relatively small, if you don't take it much below 50% state of charge this may not be an issue. (or it may be a big one--some folks do charge six volt pairs at pretty high amperages).

I got around the issue of different chemistries by having all batteries including the chassis to be identical.

trickedyj wrote:
I think the ECU control does a decent job at limiting alternator output to something with in it's own duty cycle.

[pianotuna]

Hi trickedy,

You would have done better to beef up the gauge of the charging wire, or added a second path.

I do not know about marine alternators--but the one on an E-450 will let out the magic blue smoke if it is ever disconnected from a battery, when the motor is running.

There are "bird" devices for RV's that allow the "house" and "chassis" battery to both be charged from any source I.E. alternator, solar, or converter.

[trickedyj]

pianotuna wrote:
Hi trickedyj,

My 2004 E-450 came directly from Ford with a solenoid for charging the house batteries. I somehow doubt that they would take a giant leap backwards to a diode based system.

Mine was fused at 60 amps, and because I have a medium size inverter (2500 watts) I blew the fuse more than once. I had a 2nd charging path added and switched over to 50 amp automatic circuit breakers.

The OEM Ford solenoid lasted less than a year before it had burned contacts. I moved up to a much heavier duty unit and all is well now.

Good luck with the new charging device that you have chosen. Please let us know if you can charge at a high rate. I have to limit the rate deliberately sometimes. I can do so because I added manual switching for the solenoids. My stock alternator only does 130 amps.

An additional consideration is the duty cycle of the existing alternator. It may not "like" you drawing 180 amps. On the other hand, you are going with a tiny battery bank, so perhaps that is not really much of an issue.

You're right it is a 130 amp alternator, you can upgrade keeping OEM (Ford) to 160 amp. I will let you know how it goes. I don't think my 2 6v's will ask for 180 amps...I think the ECU control does a decent job at limiting alternator output to something with in it's own duty cycle. If for some reason my house batts are overwhelming my alternator for charge, then my original reason for doing this has succeeded! Though I'll be on the hunt for a heavier duty alternator at that point, but with a smile on my face

[trickedyj]

Salvo wrote:
I thought you wanted a faster charge. It won't be faster if you don't have a diode isolator now. Everything else you listed is fluff.

Will this gadget even work on vehicles? The link just mentions boats. How does your alternator get regulated? Will regulation get muffed up when all the current goes to the house battery?

Sal

I probably do have a solenoid and not a diode isolator. I'm admitting I don't care what I have I believe I can get more power to my house batts from my 'gadget' thingy that I ordered from the 'clueless' boat industry (slight sarcasm since the yacht industry is unfortunately LIGHT YEARS ahead of most of the RV industry, albeit not in solar.)

...look at it this way I am a guinea pig on transferring some boat "wizardry" over to an RV, I have a little faith and unless you can use some cool equations about electron flow to prove me wrong please let me dream.

In all actuality all this "gadget" is, is an autonomous switch (the one that says 1,2,both,off) (fyi don't use off while your engine is on as they say it's bad for your alternator). Except instead of me being a dummy and forgetting to switch to the correct batt bank, I am paying a company a little money to make my life easier.

[pianotuna]

Hi trickedyj,

My 2004 E-450 came directly from Ford with a solenoid for charging the house batteries. I somehow doubt that they would take a giant leap backwards to a diode based system.

Mine was fused at 60 amps, and because I have a medium size inverter (2500 watts) I blew the fuse more than once. I had a 2nd charging path added and switched over to 50 amp automatic circuit breakers.

The OEM Ford solenoid lasted less than a year before it had burned contacts. I moved up to a much heavier duty unit and all is well now.

Good luck with the new charging device that you have chosen. Please let us know if you can charge at a high rate. I have to limit the rate deliberately sometimes. I can do so because I added manual switching for the solenoids. My stock alternator only does 130 amps.

An additional consideration is the duty cycle of the existing alternator. It may not "like" you drawing 180 amps. On the other hand, you are going with a tiny battery bank, so perhaps that is not really much of an issue.

[Salvo]

I thought you wanted a faster charge. It won't be faster if you don't have a diode isolator now. Everything else you listed is fluff.

Will this gadget even work on vehicles? The link just mentions boats. How does your alternator get regulated? Will regulation get muffed up when all the current goes to the house battery?

Sal

[trickedyj]

Salvo wrote:
Are you positive that you presently have a diode isolator installed? I wouldn't have thought they were still using them in '06.

If you don't have a diode isolator then your new isolator will not provide any improvement.

Sal

I can't see how a direct line from my alternator to my house batts will not be an improvement over any other item? By improvement:

- ZERO voltage drop
- with a typical solenoid setup your ECU that manages your alternator which charges your batteries sees your house and start batts as one and manages the charge (so you'll either slightly over charge one or slightly under charge one). With my soon to be setup the alternator only connects to start battery on start call and when start batt needs charged, otherwise alternator is solely charging house batts.

Please explain your side so I can better understand your logic against mine.

[Salvo]

Are you positive that you presently have a diode isolator installed? I wouldn't have thought they were still using them in '06.

If you don't have a diode isolator then your new isolator will not provide any improvement.

Sal

trickedyj wrote:

- Here's the good stuff: Remove Diode isolator between alternator and house battery and install ProMariner ProIsoCharge 180.

Let me know what you think!