Honda 2000 won’t run my late model home furnace

[C_Schomer]

I never use it for camping anymore and I only keep it cuz of my crappy power company. It will run the frig but the furnace is too fussy. Is there a device that will make it pure sine wave and will it then run the furnace?
Next ?… are all pure sine wave gens created equal so they will run this furnace or does it take a special model. Thanks, Craig

[Gdetrailer]

wa8yxm wrote:
Half a horse power (Common blower size) is 500 watts running (Approximently, I know that's not the right math but the motor is not 100% efficient so that's what it takes) starting can be 2500 or more.

OP has a 35K BTU 90+ furnace.

It won't have even a "half horse" fan motor.

Even though the furnace documentation may not be the same as the OPs (since they didn't give model, I guessed using documentation for any newer high efficiency furnace) I suspect the that small of furnce will have similar limited CFMs which does not require a large motor. The one I linked states 1/3 HP motor, by pure math 1/3 HP would be roughly 250W or 2 amps at 120V. This is very doable with a small gen even a 1000W gen should be able to run that furnace.

If OP furnace was larger like 75K BTU then yes, a much larger fan motor would be required and employed in order to get the correct CFM of airflow. 35K BTU furnace does not require a huge amount of airflow and hence a much smaller fan motor can be used.

The OP also clearly stated that their 35K BTU furnace is using ECM type of motors.

You can read up on ECM motors HERE

ECM motors by their design do not have a large startup surge, they are actually soft started.

"An ECM motor, known as Electrically Commutated Motors, is the fastest it has ever been, with unparalleled airflow delivery to meet the necessity of a heating or cooling system. It can be used in hundreds of different applications. It is a self-regulating motor that do not need the assistance of any other system to operate. But what causes an ECM motor to work? How does the motor know when to speed up and when to slow down without external sensors to track pressure, temperature, or something else?

ECM motor has a microprocessor which is a crucial factor in its ability to have higher performance. The microprocessor is used to sequentially energize and de-energize each winding of the stator, generating an electrical current. The processor-based pulse control generates a magnetic field, which allows the rotor inside this ring of magnets to spin. The microprocessor employs a closed-loop feedback system to more accurately regulate the magnetic fields, thus reducing the eddy currents and losses experienced by conventional mechanically commutated motors. This also allows for the use of a brushless motor, which reduces points of physical contact within the motor’s moving parts and makes them more durable.
"

Think of a ECM motor as more like a DC brushless motor like what is typically used in computer fans, only on a much larger scale. It is fully RPM controllable from start up to full speed and back down to zero without large startup currents.

[wa8yxm]

Half a horse power (Common blower size) is 500 watts running (Approximently, I know that's not the right math but the motor is not 100% efficient so that's what it takes) starting can be 2500 or more.

[austinjenna]

austinjenna wrote:

So forgive my lack of electrical knowledge but is all that I would need to do is get a 110 plug, then run a small jumper from the ground to the neutral(white/silver) side of the plug and plug that into the generator?

My assumption is that instead of using a 110 plug I could also do it for the 30 amp outlet on the generator and therefore free up a 110 outlet. My genny has 2 - 110 outlets and 1-30 amp outlet

Thanks

For 5 years, I have been using a bonding plug, exactly as you describe, so my PI EMS will let my Honda EU2000i current into the trailer. I finally got tired of fooling with the plug this summer and opened up the Honda's faceplate. I jumpered the GROUND to the NEUTRAL on the Honda's receptacle, itself. So, yes, you can jumper the back of the 30 amp outlet. Or, if it is easier, jumper the back of the 15 amp outlet. It doesn't matter which outlet you jumper.

A few weeks later, I came across another camper who was complaining about having to disable his PI EMS when running his generator. I gave him my (now unneeded) bonding plug and told him to plug it INTO THE GENERATOR, ITSELF.

Thanks. I have an EU2000 and it does run my house furnace and have done that when the power has gone out in winter. I was curious about this for my daughter who will be getting a new furnace and has a ryobi inverter generator and being able to set her up and what might need to be done.

[Bobbo]

austinjenna wrote:
So forgive my lack of electrical knowledge but is all that I would need to do is get a 110 plug, then run a small jumper from the ground to the neutral(white/silver) side of the plug and plug that into the generator?

My assumption is that instead of using a 110 plug I could also do it for the 30 amp outlet on the generator and therefore free up a 110 outlet. My genny has 2 - 110 outlets and 1-30 amp outlet

Thanks

For 5 years, I have been using a bonding plug, exactly as you describe, so my PI EMS will let my Honda EU2000i current into the trailer. I finally got tired of fooling with the plug this summer and opened up the Honda's faceplate. I jumpered the GROUND to the NEUTRAL on the Honda's receptacle, itself. So, yes, you can jumper the back of the 30 amp outlet. Or, if it is easier, jumper the back of the 15 amp outlet. It doesn't matter which outlet you jumper.

A few weeks later, I came across another camper who was complaining about having to disable his PI EMS when running his generator. I gave him my (now unneeded) bonding plug and told him to plug it INTO THE GENERATOR, ITSELF.

[Gdetrailer]

2oldman wrote:

Tvov wrote:
Starting current for a blower fan would exceed a generator's ability?

If that were true the gen would overload and quit. I've asked what the gen does but no response.

:R

Here is the important info that the OP posted..

C Schomer wrote:
Sorry, I’ve been away! It’s NG 35kbtuh ECM induced draft 96%/condensing 120vac 2016 model. I retired from HVAC but the older Models that I was trained on had different ECM motors. They were all 1 hp and the speeds were selected with dip switches. Even those motors only drew 75 W on half speed. This tiny furnace that I have has three selectable speeds by switching taps on the motor and the wattage will be super low. The furnace and stat do nothing when connected to the generator.

Notice, it IS a small furnace using ECM motors, ECM motors are variable speed and do not have a large startup surge, they are "soft" started from a microprocessor drive unit.

HERE is a spec sheet for a 35K BTU home furnace. 35K furnace uses a 1/3 HP ECM motor.. 1/3HP is well within what a 2000W gen is able to handle.

I think IF the gen was going into overload, shuts down or does a happy dance the OP would have mentioned that.

I suspect from the lack of that information that the gen is perfectly fine and the fault is not with the gen as far as overload but with the fact that the CONTROL BOARD of the furnace is detecting no connection between the neutral and ground of the gen.. When a fault is detected by the control board, typically the control board is designed to not start the ignition sequence (IE no inducer fan, no air handler fan, no ignition, no gas valve, NO RESPONSE).

Newer furnaces like what the OP has, have many safety designs built in and these safeties all must be met before the control board ever starts the furnace ignition sequence.

Modern home furnaces are designed for being connected to your home electrical system. A portable generator is not always setup just like your main home panel where all neutrals and grounds are tied together in the main panel.

OP has nothing to lose by adding that little jumper to a plug and see if that solves the problem (I believe it will).

OP could of coarse simply add a transfer switch to their furnace like this..



Which should preserve the neutral/ground bond through the main breaker panel and doesn't require OP to have to rewire the furnace or wire the furnace on a plug (I personally am not a fan of wiring a furnace to a plug in to the mains for various reasons)..



Found HERE

[Grit_dog]

The problem is because your lavish lifestyle lead you to purchase a quality expensive unnecessary Jap generator and you’re being punished for your ability and decision to do so…..
Just ask Nammedvac70….

(This was a joke for those not as quick on the draw lol)

[2oldman]

Tvov wrote:
Starting current for a blower fan would exceed a generator's ability?

If that were true the gen would overload and quit. I've asked what the gen does but no response.

[Gdetrailer]

austinjenna wrote:
So forgive my lack of electrical knowledge but is all that I would need to do is get a 110 plug, then run a small jumper from the ground to the neutral(white/silver) side of the plug and plug that into the generator?

My assumption is that instead of using a 110 plug I could also do it for the 30 amp outlet on the generator and therefore free up a 110 outlet. My genny has 2 - 110 outlets and 1-30 amp outlet

Thanks

That is a "it depends" type of question.

It depends on the exact type of gen you have (IE inverter/non inverter).

It depends on how that gen is wired (IE120V only, 120V/240V, switchable 120V only or 120V/240V).

It depends on what brand of gen you have. Some brands already tie the neutral and ground positions together internally so no need to add a plug..

It depends on if that gen is going to be OK with having the neutral and ground positions connected together. Some inverter gens may take issue to having neutral and ground position wired together..

If you have not run into a problem with an open neutral to ground on the gen then no need to add it.

[Tvov]

quote=C Schomer:
How big is the furnace's blower.. Good chance the starting current exceeds the generator's ability.

Starting current for a blower fan would exceed a generator's ability? Would that be like a commercial factory size blower or something?

I am not an expert in HVAC, this is not being sarcastic or anything.



Note: couldn't do a normal quote for some reason.

[austinjenna]

So forgive my lack of electrical knowledge but is all that I would need to do is get a 110 plug, then run a small jumper from the ground to the neutral(white/silver) side of the plug and plug that into the generator?

My assumption is that instead of using a 110 plug I could also do it for the 30 amp outlet on the generator and therefore free up a 110 outlet. My genny has 2 - 110 outlets and 1-30 amp outlet

Thanks

[Fisherman]

S Davis wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

2oldman wrote:

Fisherman wrote:
Has nothing to do with the fuel source, .

Has everything to do with the fuel if it's electric.

Furnace implies it burns fuel. Otherwise it would be an electric heater and 2000w is no where close to enough for a whole house electric heating system.

As others have mentioned, it's nothing to do with the sine wave but with the grounding.

Could be oil fired, they draw more power for the burner.

He mentioned it's NG, Natural Gas.

[S_Davis]

valhalla360 wrote:

2oldman wrote:

Fisherman wrote:
Has nothing to do with the fuel source, .

Has everything to do with the fuel if it's electric.

Furnace implies it burns fuel. Otherwise it would be an electric heater and 2000w is no where close to enough for a whole house electric heating system.

As others have mentioned, it's nothing to do with the sine wave but with the grounding.

Could be oil fired, they draw more power for the burner.

[Gdetrailer]

Furnace control board automatically checks and detects for open neutral to equipment ground and should automatically lockout the furnace from operating. Hence the reason why you get no response from the furnace.

Some control boards actually have a diagnostic LED on board which will blink out a trouble code to help pin down the issue..

Assuming you have a Honda 2000i inverter series, as I recall those generators do not connect the neutral position to the equipment ground. This typically is not a problem with most electrical items. But it does create issues with things like RV EMS systems or in your case a control board that monitors the neutral to equipment ground and with no connection it faults on the open neutral/ground.

As I stated, the control board uses what is called diode rectification to determine if flame is present via a metal probe which is isolated from the burner and when a flame is present the flame engulfs the probe.

The flame conducts electricity in one direction (like a diode) between the rod and burner.

This sensing only works correctly when the burner is at the same voltage potential as the neutral. For that reason the control board will prevent the furnace from starting or responding to the T stat call for heat.

It is part of a safety system to prevent gas valve from staying open if no flame is present.

Retry your setup with adding the neutral/ground plug on the gen, it should work once you establish that connection.

[2oldman]

C Schomer wrote:
The furnace and stat do nothing when connected to the generator.

Does the generator do anything?

[C_Schomer]

Sorry, I’ve been away! It’s NG 35kbtuh ECM induced draft 96%/condensing 120vac 2016 model. I retired from HVAC but the older Models that I was trained on had different ECM motors. They were all 1 hp and the speeds were selected with dip switches. Even those motors only drew 75 W on half speed. This tiny furnace that I have has three selectable speeds by switching taps on the motor and the wattage will be super low. The furnace and stat do nothing when connected to the generator.
This generator was new in about 2010. Now that you guys mentioned it. I made a pigtail with the neutral and ground bonded for some thing but I don’t remember what, but I know it had to be some thing for camping… My charger wizard or some thing in this trailer.
It’s nice that all these later appliances have such low power demand. Refrigerators even use PSC compressor motors and draw less than 2 A. Extension cord size won’t a problem… I have up to 4 gauge.
That’s a great tip on the bonded connector. I’ll try it in January when I’m back in Colorado. Thanks a million!! Craig