We have been full time going on 4 years in a 39ft dp. We have loved the inverter system using 4 6V golf cart batteries, and the Magnum power managment controller. After the purchase of a "winter" home in the SW, we are moving back to a 5th wheel, as leaving the DP sitting for 4/6 months makes little sense. We purchased a used 5th wheel with a 5500 LP gennie and my questions are as follows.I would like to have similar system in the 5th wheel. Battery bank, inverter/charger etc. I'm getting bits and pieces here and there on the net, forum boards utube etc. Does anyone know of a comprensive book that can walk me through what I need to do. I have wired several houses, and wires electricity does not scare me.Thanks in advance for any help.If I'm on the page please dear moderator move my post.I can't begin to tell all how the place has helped me since 07!

Do you know what size inverter you had in the DP? If that worked for you then install the same brand and size along with four 6 volt GC batteries. You did not say if you plan on installing solar panels. Four 160 watt panels work nice for you.

I found the instruction manual for my Prosine was rather complete.. Still I had it installed by Camping world ... THey only screwed up two things on that install and two more on the oil change they did at the same time.. I AM NOT KIDDING.THe install is very basic, with only a few "TIPS" not in the manualFirst.. LOCATION LOCATION LOCASTION Since a big inverter draws BIG TIME 12 volt current you want it close to the batteries,, but NOT breathing the same air (Battery fumes bad for inverter)Next Whatever size cables they say to use (12 volt side) UPGRADE one or two sizes and for as much of the run as possible tape the positive and negative cables side by side (or use a split loom) I suggest red for the positive and black for the negative (Wire insulation color)So much for the 12 volt side of life.. Now the 120Determine what circuits you want INVERTER powered.. IN my RV that is the Televisions and related electronics,, GFCI chain and MIcrowavePut in a SUB PANEL and transfer these circuits to it,, IN many cases you can actually use the same breakers.. NOTE: Sub panels generally do NOT have a main breaker and also do not bond Neutral and Ground (Ever on that).. NOTE 2: In some cases the sub panel may be part of the inverter itself. Mine is not, I like mine better, If I trip a breaker I DO NOT need to go outside to reset.Replace one of the now unused breakers (or moved breakers) with a 30 amp, if you moved them block off the others for safety (Gorilla tape works well).10 Ga (or 8) from that 30 amp breaker in the main box to a 2,000 watt inverter/charger.. and a 2nd 10ga back to the sub panel. Use a sharpie to label them IN and OUT at the inverter.. And that's all folksOh Batteries.. One Pair GC-2 per Kilowatt of inverter, DO NOT FORGET THE FUSE

prstlk wrote:I would like to have similar system in the 5th wheel. Battery bank, inverter/charger etc. I'm getting bits and pieces here and there on the net, forum boards utube etc. Why ??That is, what do you need or want to do that the generator will not do for you......without ANY extra hassle and expense, except keeping your propane tanks filled that is ??This is a serious question, especially since you already HAVE a generator and that option costs you ZERO dollars up front.

Good morning,First, let me introduce myself. I’m a refugee from RORT on Usenet. I just joined this forum and this is my first post. I’m a retired nuclear engineer and electronic design engineer.I just bought a new to me (‘05 model Tioga Walkabout) and as I did on my last rig, I’m equipping it with a large battery and charging system. My ultimate goal is to be able to spend quiet hours with an AC running from batteries. I’ll be chronicling this on my blog, http://www.johndearmond.com.I don’t like the combined chargers/inverters for the simple reason that if one part fails, the whole unit is out of service. Therefore I am using a separate inverter and charger.BatteriesAGMs are the way to go. Wet cells are so last century. I have some AGM traction batteries (100 amp-hours, over 100 lbs of lead.) from the old AVS electric bus company in Chattanooga. They’re over 10 years, yet they discharge test at about 90% of rated capacity. I’m probably not going to use these because they are so large for the amp-hours. I’m currently looking at this battery, specifically 5 of them:https://www.batterystuff.com/batteries/ups-telecom/universal-12v-110-ah-deep-cycle-sealed-agm-battery-ub121100-d5751.htmlI have experience with this battery. Though it is made by the chicoms, it is a quality product. I’m still shopping for a better price for that class of battery.The Tioga layout is incredibly wasteful of space but by removing a panel and replacing it with a door, I’ve found room for 5 batteries. Conveniently, this compartment sits directly on a frame rail so no reinforcing is required.The batteries should be inside the living spaces where they are protected from weather extremes. The LAST place for the house battery is under the hood - the way Tioga did it.CablesI use #2 welding cable for the battery to inverter wiring and #4 welding cable for the other connections.Charging. The rig has one of the old Magnetek 6300 charger/converters which outputs a screaming 5 amps of charging current. I’ve replaced the converter part with a Progressive Dynamics PD4655V 55 amp insert.http://www.progressivedyn.com/pd4600_converter_replacement.htmlThis is a combination smart charger and 12 volt power supply to the rig.Because my theory is that the batteries should be charged as fast as possible to minimize generator run time, I’ve also installed a PD 9280 80 amp converter that I had laying around from another project.http://www.progressivedyn.com/rv_converter_pd9280_2.htmlI’ve tested the two and they work well in parallel. That is a total of 135 amps of charging capacity.Inverter.If you need pure sine wave (I don’t), use one of the ProSine inverters from Xantrex. I’ve used the modified sine wave inverters that Harbor Freight sells for years with never a failure. This is the 2kW one that is going in my rig.https://www.harborfreight.com/2000-watt-continuous4000-watt-peak-power-inverter-69662.htmlIt is on sale for $130 right now. I carry a Remington electric chain saw (about $40 from wallyworld). The two work together wonderfully. I live at the end of a 25 mile winding mountain road so I have to cut my way in or out fairly frequently.SwitchingI wanted the switching from shore power to generator to inverter to be automatic so I installed two Parallax ATX 301 (30 amp) automatic transfer switches. I give top priority to the generator, next priority to the inverter and finally last is shore power. The reasoning for this is simple. If I’m in a campground and the power becomes marginal, I want to be able to turn on the inverter or start the generator to override shore power. I want starting the generator to cause the generator to assume the load from the inverter. The wiring for this will be detailed in my blog as soon as I can get it posted.AlternatorThis rig is built on a Ford E350 van cut. It has a 100 amp alternator but as-received, it squealed the belt at full load. The solution is NAPA’s highest quality replacement serpentine belt. I’ve never found another belt to compare. I'm looking into higher capacity alternators but for now the stock one will do.That’s about it for now. Questions are welcome.John

You should have started a completely new thread for this postAnd five batteries are niceI have five big Telcom AGM batteriesStill a no go for A/C, oh a big inverter will start itBut for a roof to unit your looking at 100 amps or more to the inverter to get the 1400 Watts for the a/c, that means approx 2 hours runtime to 50 percent battery chargeWelcome and have fun

inverter, charger, battery bank add on for 5th whell

pnichols
Explorer II
Jul 03, 2017
Here's one price for the battery I linked to (I paid about $305 each for mine that I picked up locally):

https://www.wholesalesolar.com/9949473/fullriver/batteries/fullriver-dc115-12-agm-sealed-battery-12v-115-ah-battery

P.S. I was going to buy Lifeline AGM batteries instead of these, but the Lifeline batteries specified a long term float voltage of around 13.2 volts. I float my RV's batteries at the stock RV converter's ~13.8 volts, so I had to look for a competitive AGM battery with a higher specified float voltage.
neonjohn
Explorer
Jul 03, 2017
pnichols wrote:

You might want to also consider this battery model in your system - they are 115 AH each and are warranted for 5 years: http://www.fullriverbattery.com/product/batteries/DC115-12

Thanks. That looks like a nice battery. Any idea the cost?

pnichols wrote:

Regarding the squealing belt on your E350 while spinning it's alternator under load: There definitely must be a way to stop this. Our E450 has a 130 amp alternator and at times dumps over 70 amps (with the V10 idling) into our two paralled batteries of the type in my link above ... and there is no belt squeal.

Yes, the solution is NAPA's super-premium belt. I had the same problem with my last RV after I upgraded to a 130 amp alternator. The belt solved the problem.

The belt that is on the rig is of unknown vintage. One of the things on my list to fix.

Thanks
John
MrWizard
Moderator
Jul 03, 2017
your multiplying and i'm dividing, you say the a/c is using 1640 va to produce 1134 watts of work

and i'm saying its using 2314 va to produce 1640 watts of work

i like your math better than mine, I hope you are correct
pnichols
Explorer II
Jul 03, 2017
neonjohn wrote:
Batteries

AGMs are the way to go. Wet cells are so last century. I have some AGM traction batteries (100 amp-hours, over 100 lbs of lead.) from the old AVS electric bus company in Chattanooga. They’re over 10 years, yet they discharge test at about 90% of rated capacity. I’m probably not going to use these because they are so large for the amp-hours. I’m currently looking at this battery, specifically 5 of them:

https://www.batterystuff.com/batteries/ups-telecom/universal-12v-110-ah-deep-cycle-sealed-agm-battery-ub121100-d5751.html

I have experience with this battery. Though it is made by the chicoms, it is a quality product. I’m still shopping for a better price for that class of battery.

You might want to also consider this battery model in your system - they are 115 AH each and are warranted for 5 years: http://www.fullriverbattery.com/product/batteries/DC115-12

Regarding the squealing belt on your E350 while spinning it's alternator under load: There definitely must be a way to stop this. Our E450 has a 130 amp alternator and at times dumps over 70 amps (with the V10 idling) into our two paralled batteries of the type in my link above ... and there is no belt squeal.
neonjohn
Explorer
Jul 03, 2017
MrWizard wrote:
"So the watts are 120 volts * 13.5 * 0.7PF = 1134 watts. BUT. The generator has to supply the total volt-ampers or 1600 VA"

You are right that roof to a/c uses a lot of power
But your numbers are low

120*13.5= 1620 . 1620/0.7 =2314va

A poor pf means it uses more power not less
It uses 2314 va to do 1620w of work

Nameplate volts times nameplate amps yields volt-amperes on a less than 1 PF load. So.

120 * 13.5 = 1620 VA and not watts. To get watts, which is always less than VA when the PF is < 1.0, multiply by the power factor of 0.7. As I did. 1620 * 0.7 = 1134 watts.

John
MrWizard
Moderator
Jul 02, 2017
my batteries are rated at 135 amphrs for an 8Hr rate/discharge
that 27 amps discharge per battery times 5 batteries
(new specs are 132 ampHrs)

in other words i can carry 135 amps (5*27) for 8 hours to total discharge

i have never done this, and never want to do this
and have no plans to run the A/C from batteries and inverter

i only post this to inform, there are batteries out there with the rated capabilities
mine are FIAMM 12FLX500

FIAMM 12FLX500

AND YES we use a generator during the day, the batteries and inverter supply our needs at night, residential fridge, tv, pc, fans, even electric blanket on the bed, MW for some bacon or hot danish, or coffee
but A/C is strictly from Generator power

i got mine surplus, new specs are slightly different than the ones listed for my version
Sam_Spade
Explorer
Jul 02, 2017
neonjohn wrote:

I don't like to run the generator unless it will be on long enough to fully heat up.

Do you camp much in the winter time ?

10 minutes should be plenty, especially if it has a good load and it's not cold out.

Just the converter/changer provides a decent load if the batteries are down a bit.

When the morning low is 70 F, run your gen for 5 minutes under load.
Shut it down and check the temp inside the cover.
That's 5 minutes by the clock, not an estimate.
Sam_Spade
Explorer
Jul 02, 2017
time2roll wrote:
Not sure I would install a big 2000 watt inverter if I had an on-board generator.
Maybe something like 300 watts is way easier to run or charge small items. For microwave, hairdryer, A/C just use the generator. Or do you need electric coffee before generator hours?

Some are perfectionists.
Some are obsessive.
Some need a "hobby".
Some don't realize what they are getting into.

I prefer KISS. That means a generator.
If you have a quiet one, "generator hours" are somewhat flexible.
And coffee will heat on the propane stovetop if necessary. :)
MEXICOWANDERER
Explorer
Jul 02, 2017
Let's look at battery 5 hour rates. A high continuous discharge level skews ampere hour ratings. There is no magic answer. AGM + a Fort Knox budget is unavoidable. To create heat, exhange it by pumping through an orifice is anything but efficient. Unfortunately there are no alternatives.
time2roll
Nomad
Jul 02, 2017
Ok and I cannot imagine using the mini-split air for such a short duration that the generator would not warm up. Battery powered air conditioning never seems to go very well.

I might even focus on a way to carry more propane if running the air for extended periods.

Did you have similar in the DP to run the air? That worked OK?

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