operating temperature

[pianotuna]

Hi,

It is 93 f outside and my Ford class c V-10 radiator temperature is 216. Is that normal and/or safe?

[pianotuna]

Hi,

I put in a call to Ford Motorhomes. They, as usual, were not able to help.

Then I called the Ford dealership. They provided me with the information that the thermostat on my unit starts to open at 181 F and is fully open by 200.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

I am intelligent enough to react to problems. A viable answer needs to address specific points not generalities. So then if everything was == equal == an engine for a three axle chassis would operate at the same temperature as the lightest chassis for that engine.

They do not. They "should" operate at the safest temperature within the parameters of engine design and emissions control. Heavy chassis engines, especially as GVW increases run warmer and warmer. Ever see a cracked aluminum cylinder head? Or worse, a basket full of edpm cased sensors or connectors (they are too cheap to use nylon), warp? It is costly. So are group 65 batteries, the Ford favorite chassis battery - the 65 is the costliest BCI automotive battery in the business. And it does not do well at temperatures exceeding 140F

OEM can state anything they want. As long as the engine passes emissions and does not come back to haunt them during the warranty period. But 350 degree engine oil becomes a lot less effective. Remember OEM? The folks that gave the public Ford's self-removing spark plugs? The folks that designed a magnetic rotor shaft and totally exposed slip ring bearing on the Delco CS130 alternator?

You expect THESE folks are sophisticated enough or care enough to maximize engine life and auxiliary component parts? They have one goal. Get it smogged and keep it out of dealership warranty bays. Design engineers are plying golf when an engine's pistons swap holes 15,000 miles beyond warranty end.

The vulnerable only can play the part of the"smart consumer" and learn. Then again they can tune in the Dukes of Hazzard after paying for repairs. I outlined a plan that has very few weak points and I am being hypercritical of myself. Get that engine temperature down to equal the lightest loaded POWERTRAIN that the engine is fitted to NOT THE CHASSIS. if a 205F run temperature maintains the engine within emission limits, and agrees with the lightest loaded powertrain engine heat then that's what to shoot for.

A 20 degree correction can easily add up to a thousand dollars in savings over a six year period. There is LABOR involved in finding a heat damaged sensor. How about a tow bill?

Year one. My toad. Destroyed O2 sensor. Year 4 number 2. Year 5 number 3. Chucked 217F thermostat replaced with 200F. California emission test numbers went DOWN significantly. Now 8 years after the last sensor it's doing fine. So are the emissions. I had them checked LAST WEEK.

This discussion reminds me of the psychology of California banning sales of PENNYROYAL OIL. The best organic mosquito repellent on earth. Why? A dozen women were caught DRINKING IT TO INDUCE AN ABORTION. Meanwhile ZIKA and West Nile Virus rages on. I take it all back BOSS HAWG, AWAITS ON CHANNEL 42.

[dougrainer]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
"Want to screw up your driveability? Put a LOWER Tstat in the engine. Doug"


I love it. A general broad sweep statement versus reality.

Yes if a 160F thermostat is used it will certainly harm emissions, driveabilty, and even the lifespan of the engine.

But, I went back and I looked and looked for such a disparity in my post. All I found was a 194 - 200 degree value.

Hypothesizing is a funny thing. It brings out the dreaded monster extrapolation. As an argument against, never use a verbatim opposing view. Always "extrapolate". Higher, lower, colder, hotter, quieter, louder than what the opposing viewpoint clearly states. This can be be accomplished by simply using a cognitive with no set value.

The idea is to allow an engine to operate at optimum temperature. If an individual deludes themselves that an "average" pickup truck operates at the same engine temperature as a motorhome then that's OK if that individual does not profess that "It means the same thing".

I have too many years experience to fall for delusions. One of the things I rely on heavily is common sense. If a pickup truck's normal operating temperature is say 216F it is of factory calibration and therefore correct. If that same drivetrain is installed in a NON FACTORY chassis and operates fifteen or more degrees hotter, which value would you believe to be "correct"?

If reducing temperature to that of the factory pickup truck is harmful (hello?) an emissions test will reveal it in a heartbeat. California emissions tests are not pass/fail. They use numbers and they use a spans. A range of acceptability that meets compliance. Or not. Emissions tests include HC CO and NOX among others. It isn't a static test. Motor vehicles are put on a chassis dynomometer and tested under load. And idle, and high idle.

By comparing vehicle tests, before and after, it is positive proof of an impact or not of doing any maintenance or adjustment. One does not CAUSE driveability problems and not see it in an emissions test. To argue the point would border on the ridiculous.

So the idea is to ADJUST engine coolant temperature to reflect that of a NORMAL PRODUCTION FACTORY (Means Ford, GM or MoPar) MOTOR VEHICLE. Normal means range. Acceptable min/max temperatures.

What I am saying is it would be foolish to endure the ramifications of a borderline too hot engine. If 20 degrees can be subtracted and still remain within the range as recommended by OEM it will save money.

The motorhome builder could give a dham if your hoses last four years rather than eight. It could care less if your chassis batteries last three years rather than seven. It could care less if a throttle position or crankshaft position sensor lasts four years instead of ten. Excessively high heat destroys stuff needlessly.

"The Extrapolator" will take the above statement and goose it to try and include every RV in all parts of country, in all driving conditions in every season of the year.

An intelligent person will weigh facts and come to a conclusion such as:

My rig does not run hot or does so very infrequently
I live on Vancouver Island it never gets hot here.
I simply do not drive when it gets broiling hot
I live and vacation in flat country

Or, the best one...

I simply don't give a ****

I have had to fight this issue for forty years with regard to underhood chassis batteries, extremely high heat and phenomenal rates of grid corrosion. Simply reducing engine coolant temperature to NORMAL helps. Forced air cooling helped even more.

This brings up a question not related to batteries. Two questions...

How many of you know for a fact what temperature the transmission fluid is on the RETURN line from the transmission oil cooling device?

How many of you have installed a transmission cooler or substituted a larger transmission cooler?

I apologize for dealing in reality. A bad habit I guess...

You are pretty smart, But, like a LOT of smart people you are NOT that smart in all things. MY post was in response to 40 years as an RV Technician. I have seen all the silly things RV'ers have tried with using lower tstats to keep the engine running cooler and the problems they experience. Now, You seem to think Chevy/Workhorse and Ford build Class A and Class C chassis for someone that does NOT install a RV on them. They take into account the weight and design for what the RV maker is doing with the chassis. Those RAW chassis's are BUILT for an RV, nothing else. You USE the control systems that are designed by the Chassis makers. Doug

[time2roll]

Hoses and belts seem to be better than ever to me.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

"Want to screw up your driveability? Put a LOWER Tstat in the engine. Doug"


I love it. A general broad sweep statement versus reality.

Yes if a 160F thermostat is used it will certainly harm emissions, driveabilty, and even the lifespan of the engine.

But, I went back and I looked and looked for such a disparity in my post. All I found was a 194 - 200 degree value.

Hypothesizing is a funny thing. It brings out the dreaded monster extrapolation. As an argument against, never use a verbatim opposing view. Always "extrapolate". Higher, lower, colder, hotter, quieter, louder than what the opposing viewpoint clearly states. This can be be accomplished by simply using a cognitive with no set value.

The idea is to allow an engine to operate at optimum temperature. If an individual deludes themselves that an "average" pickup truck operates at the same engine temperature as a motorhome then that's OK if that individual does not profess that "It means the same thing".

I have too many years experience to fall for delusions. One of the things I rely on heavily is common sense. If a pickup truck's normal operating temperature is say 216F it is of factory calibration and therefore correct. If that same drivetrain is installed in a NON FACTORY chassis and operates fifteen or more degrees hotter, which value would you believe to be "correct"?

If reducing temperature to that of the factory pickup truck is harmful (hello?) an emissions test will reveal it in a heartbeat. California emissions tests are not pass/fail. They use numbers and they use a spans. A range of acceptability that meets compliance. Or not. Emissions tests include HC CO and NOX among others. It isn't a static test. Motor vehicles are put on a chassis dynomometer and tested under load. And idle, and high idle.

By comparing vehicle tests, before and after, it is positive proof of an impact or not of doing any maintenance or adjustment. One does not CAUSE driveability problems and not see it in an emissions test. To argue the point would border on the ridiculous.

So the idea is to ADJUST engine coolant temperature to reflect that of a NORMAL PRODUCTION FACTORY (Means Ford, GM or MoPar) MOTOR VEHICLE. Normal means range. Acceptable min/max temperatures.

What I am saying is it would be foolish to endure the ramifications of a borderline too hot engine. If 20 degrees can be subtracted and still remain within the range as recommended by OEM it will save money.

The motorhome builder could give a dham if your hoses last four years rather than eight. It could care less if your chassis batteries last three years rather than seven. It could care less if a throttle position or crankshaft position sensor lasts four years instead of ten. Excessively high heat destroys stuff needlessly.

"The Extrapolator" will take the above statement and goose it to try and include every RV in all parts of country, in all driving conditions in every season of the year.

An intelligent person will weigh facts and come to a conclusion such as:

My rig does not run hot or does so very infrequently
I live on Vancouver Island it never gets hot here.
I simply do not drive when it gets broiling hot
I live and vacation in flat country

Or, the best one...

I simply don't give a ****

I have had to fight this issue for forty years with regard to underhood chassis batteries, extremely high heat and phenomenal rates of grid corrosion. Simply reducing engine coolant temperature to NORMAL helps. Forced air cooling helped even more.

This brings up a question not related to batteries. Two questions...

How many of you know for a fact what temperature the transmission fluid is on the RETURN line from the transmission oil cooling device?

How many of you have installed a transmission cooler or substituted a larger transmission cooler?

I apologize for dealing in reality. A bad habit I guess...

[dougrainer]

liborko wrote:
Your cooling system thermostat does not open until coolant reaches 192-196 Deg F. Its OK. Boiling temperature of WATER is 212 Deg F and pressurized cooling system increases this temperature even more.

Yes and NO. 50/50 water and Antifreeze moves the boiling point to 223 degrees. Adding pressure, increases it more (about 45 degrees). So, you need Antifreeze. Which will have a pressurized Boiling point of about 268 dgrees. Which I would hope nobody runs their Engine on straight water. Doug

[dougrainer]

This type discussion has come up for 30 years. The operating temp of a modern engine REQUIRES it to run at those temps. The computer controls must see those temps for optimal operation. Want to screw up your driveability? Put a LOWER Tstat in the engine. Doug

[wa8yxm]

pianotuna wrote:
Hi,

It is 93 f outside and my Ford class c V-10 radiator temperature is 216. Is that normal and/or safe?

Yes and Yes

I see the same temps on both my car and my Vortec 8.1 in fact I"ve seen 220 degrtees on the Torque monitor many times.

Now you and I both know that distilled water boils at 212 degrees at normal atmospheric pressure.. But you may have forgot that "At normal atmospheric pressure" part.. What happens if, as in an automotive engine (Car/Truck/Motor home/Other) You PRESSURIZE the system?

The boiling point goes up.. Quite a bit up in fact

Also what happens when you add Glycol type Antifreeze or any of the other common antifreezes used now days... Same thing, Boiling point goes UP.

So you are both normal and safe.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Not the point. The point is factory mis-design. Seems to be the norm. Stuff that works right is in the minority. The point is engine coolant temperature. The point is hose construction materials have not changed. The point is high temperatures eat hoses, engine mounted and engine compartment SENSORS and especially underhood batteries.

100F automatic transmission fluid is a perfect temperature. This means bypassing the radiator altogether. I would YANK that OEM thermostat and replace it with a 194F - 200F thermostat in a heartbeat.

I recommended this be done on several of my friend's vehicles. Oooooooo subsequent emissions certifications revealed no increase of the Big 5 pollutants. Numbers do not lie.

With automobiles in very cold winter climates, a 210-215 degree thermostat DOES reduce emissions especially for moderately long driving spells. Use the rig to commute or run to the 7-11 for a six-pack in sub freezing temps? A cooler thermostat may not be appropriate. Go to your new car dealer and see if the parts department offers a different thermostat for a heavy duty engine model and one for a half ton model. They don't? Neither do assembly lines.

[babock]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
What is DOES do is NOT allow transmission fluid to cool as well.

That is why you add an external tranny cooler.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

The "kit" of my making includes a new thermostat housing with an N/O temp switch bonded to it with JB Weld. Teflon 2/22 dual wire. And a flanged piezo emitter to hang under the dash. It is tiny. A single 22 gauge power feed wire with 1 amp fuse. The secret is a 10-second 'till off enclosed timer circuit. It resets.

I just do not understand why audio alerting is ignored. The word ignored commonly is associated with another - ignorance.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Are 200F thermostats available for these engines?

[red31]

New water pump brought my scanguage water and trans temp down, dash gauge went up, 07 Colorado!

[pianotuna]

No the gauge is in the normal range--but I'm using a scangauge to display the temperature.

time2roll wrote:
190 to 240 is normal. Does the gauge move?