permanent campsite electrical

[lainiest]

I want my own pedestal. Can I daisy chain off from the pedestal nearest my campsite?
Can I plug into the 50 amp space and run it to my own pedestal with a 30amp and 20 amp outlets?
I would be using a NEMA Box/Pedestal and running the wire in PVC pipe underground.
I have a 30 amp TT and would like additional 20 amps for outside use.

[Sam_Spade]

theoldwizard1 wrote:

ScottG wrote:
I know of nothing in the NEC that says you cannot have two 50A receptacles on one 50A circuit ...

What I was trying to suggest is replacing the first (existing) pedestal with a sub panel. Then you can run multiple 240V circuits off of that, as long as they each have their own pair of breakers.

AND....maybe more importantly, if the existing wiring to the pedestal will actually support that many circuits. I think not likely.

[DrewE]

LarryJM wrote:

He is NOT installing this in the existing "LOOP" ckt you are talking about. What he is doing is basically plugging in another "sub-panel" to the existing pedestal and for that I'm not sure what a lot here are referencing to NEC, etc. even applies. AFAIK as long as you are plugging this in it becomes "temporary" just like your trailer is and I don't think burying the cord or using armored cable changes the temporary nature of his addition. The key word is "it's plugged in" and as such is by definition "TEMPORARY".

Larry

Temporary also cannot be permanently installed, and in theory should only be used for a limited period of time (which I think may even be spelled out in the code). It's not legal per code, for example, to run an extension cord somewhere and staple it in position in lieu of installing an outlet. I would think burying a wire in conduit would be considered permanent by most inspectors, who really have the final say in the end.

There are also temporary installations defined by the NEC for such cases as use during construction that have different rules than permanent installations. Junction boxes are not required, for example. This is different from temporarily running an extension cord to get power from your house to your hedge trimmer to neaten up the hedge at the end of the driveway, which isn't really addressed directly (it's not part of the building electric system at all).

[soren]

theoldwizard1 wrote:

ScottG wrote:
I know of nothing in the NEC that says you cannot have two 50A receptacles on one 50A circuit ...

What I was trying to suggest is replacing the first (existing) pedestal with a sub panel. Then you can run multiple 240V circuits off of that, as long as they each have their own pair of breakers.

As other alluded to, modern campground pedestals are typically "looped" which means that large branch circuit wires leave a distribution panel, then travel from one pedestal to the next. Meaning that there are multiple pedestals on the same breaker. There are lugs inside that allow large conductors to be attached to the pedestal bus bars. Using this system, one breaker, feeding one set of conductors, feeds multiple pedestals. So, to answer the OP's question, it's definite maybe. It would depend on the results of having a qualified person review the existing installation, and determining IF that loop has suitable capacity for another pedestal. Depending on the number of pedestals on the loop, the conductor and breaker size, and the total wire length. All critical info. in determining the answer.

OTOH, older facilities, (and even a few modern ones) can also have dedicated branch circuit breakers and wiring run to each site. This can be a result of a local backwoods electrician, who didn't have a clue as to how to design an NEC approved RV park system, or somebody who really overdid the job, and didn't want the remote possibility of overloaded loops.

Whatever the answer to the OPs question, it's not going to be found here. It takes a qualified person, on site, who can open things up, and determine exactly HOW this specific facility was wired, and has the knowledge regarding what can, and can't be done, with that info. At that point the answer rests on things like conductor sizing, total voltage loss, and load calculations.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

If this is a commercial camp site a two letter word will end the question

"No"

Most commercial campsites do not distribute a surplus of electrical carrying conductor. And there are STRICT state and federal codes that specify legal and illegal connections.

AND FURTHERMORE

Commercial campsite operators are hypersensitive about modifications. Because of legal reasons.

[LarryJM]

pianotuna wrote:
ScottG

If it is an existing campground the number of pedestals per loop is specified in NEC. I do not remember the actual numbers. Adding an additional pedestal would not be legal if the loop is already maxed out.

If I remember correctly it is 13 30 amp on a loop--but I really don't remember the number for 50 amp.

He is NOT installing this in the existing "LOOP" ckt you are talking about. What he is doing is basically plugging in another "sub-panel" to the existing pedestal and for that I'm not sure what a lot here are referencing to NEC, etc. even applies. AFAIK as long as you are plugging this in it becomes "temporary" just like your trailer is and I don't think burying the cord or using armored cable changes the temporary nature of his addition. The key word is "it's plugged in" and as such is by definition "TEMPORARY".

Larry

[theoldwizard1]

ScottG wrote:
I know of nothing in the NEC that says you cannot have two 50A receptacles on one 50A circuit ...

What I was trying to suggest is replacing the first (existing) pedestal with a sub panel. Then you can run multiple 240V circuits off of that, as long as they each have their own pair of breakers.

[Sam_Spade]

SoundGuy wrote:
How do you expect to power off the nearest pedestal and not adversely affect the person using it themselves? :h

Several of us have tried to say the same thing in different ways now. I wonder if we will ever get an answer back from the OP ??

[SoundGuy]

lainiest wrote:
I want my own pedestal. Can I daisy chain off from the pedestal nearest my campsite?
Can I plug into the 50 amp space and run it to my own pedestal with a 30amp and 20 amp outlets?
I would be using a NEMA Box/Pedestal and running the wire in PVC pipe underground.
I have a 30 amp TT and would like additional 20 amps for outside use.

Where did this idea of 30 amps + 20 amps come from? You do realize that 50 amp RV service is really 100 amps - i.e. 50 amps across each of two legs - right? :@ How do you expect to power off the nearest pedestal and not adversely affect the person using it themselves? :h

[valhalla360]

Are you the campground owner and/or do you have approval to do permanent electrical work?

Most campgrounds don't like people doing this sort of stuff because if the local inspectors see it and it was done without a permit, they can hassle the campground.

Now if you have approval to do permanent electrical work and the circuit isn't maxed out, just do a daisy chain off the first pedestal, not plugging in a 50 amp cord and running it thru a conduit.

One item, you didn't mention is what kind of distances are you talking about and how good is the existing power supply.
- If it's 20' away and there are no voltage issues, probably not going to be an issue.
- If it's 300' away and you've seen low voltage during peak periods, give a lot of thought to voltage drop. You may need to up-size the wiring or consider a voltage booster.

[ScottG]

If the OP has control over the first outlet then there is no issue with adding another.

[pianotuna]

ScottG

If it is an existing campground the number of pedestals per loop is specified in NEC. I do not remember the actual numbers. Adding an additional pedestal would not be legal if the loop is already maxed out.

If I remember correctly it is 13 30 amp on a loop--but I really don't remember the number for 50 amp.

[ScottG]

theoldwizard1 wrote:
The only way you could achieve this is by replacing the first pedestal with a true outdoor rated sub panel. This panel would have a pair of breakers for the first pedestals outlets and then a pair of breakers feeding/protecting the wiring to the second pedal.

If both set of outlets were pulling large amount of amps, they could easily overload the upstream wiring, but that would be protected by the upstream breaker. You could also wire in a third pair of breaker at that fir location to act as a "main" for the 2 sets of outlets so in case of a trip, hopefully you won't have to walk all the way back to the main breaker panel (where ever that is) and reset that breaker.

This might sound complicated but it really is not. Just remember a breaker protects the downstream wiring. The only place "daisy chaining" is allowed is on 120V 15a or 20A circuits.

I know of nothing in the NEC that says you cannot have two 50A receptacles on one 50A circuit and have seen commercial establishments wired that way. Very common when they have multiple large machines but only 1 is used at a time. And of course the 30 and 20A outlets come off that first 50A outlet as well in an RV panel.
If you know of such a code, please edumacate me! :@

[theoldwizard1]

The only way you could achieve this is by replacing the first pedestal with a true outdoor rated sub panel. This panel would have a pair of breakers for the first pedestals outlets and then a pair of breakers feeding/protecting the wiring to the second pedal.

If both set of outlets were pulling large amount of amps, they could easily overload the upstream wiring, but that would be protected by the upstream breaker. You could also wire in a third pair of breaker at that fir location to act as a "main" for the 2 sets of outlets so in case of a trip, hopefully you won't have to walk all the way back to the main breaker panel (where ever that is) and reset that breaker.

This might sound complicated but it really is not. Just remember a breaker protects the downstream wiring. The only place "daisy chaining" is allowed is on 120V 15a or 20A circuits.

[ScottG]

No, sorry but you cant plug into it and extend to another panel in that manner.
What you could do is do away with the first RV panel and extend the feed for it to your new one. You would still need a junction box there at the original location.
Another less desirable but legal thing you could do is open up the first box and using appropriate connections, extend the feed to the next panel. Obviously you could not use both locations to their fullest capacity at the same time but it could be done legally.

Or you cold just use a long extension cord. I bought a 50' 30A extension cord for home use.