question on interpreting MPPT controller display

[outwestbound]

Hi. This is intended to be general. If an answer can't be made without knowing the exact unit, then please let me know. My question may be poorly phrased.

Does the amount of amps shown on the controller as coming in from the panels depend on the battery bank's state of charge?

I have an 830AH AGM batt bank and 960 watts of PV panels. When I originally tested the system, the bank was DOWN 250 AHs and the controller was bringing in about 55 amps from the panels in BULK mode. Now, I'm only DOWN about 65 AHs, and in similar sun conditions, the controllers are indicating only about 24 AHs in FLOAT mode.

Does the controller always show what the max coming in can be, or does it show what the battery bank is capable of accepting, depending on the banks state of charge and thus, the mode the controller operates in (e.g., bulk, absorption or float).

Hope this makes sense.

[full_mosey]

outwestbound wrote:

...
Most awesome graph I've ever seen to understand this process. Well done.

Thank you.

[outwestbound]

Hi folks. Just wanted to follow up on my thread. I bought two MPPT Victron 100/50 controllers from AM Solar here in Eugene, Oregon. I was able to stop by Eugene so this was great. Yes, I paid a modest premium of $80 (total for both) over the "internet" price, but got a sit-down consultation with an expert, printouts of the recommended settings for the controllers AND my Magnum MSH 3013 inverter, plus the manager's business card, whom I could call with questions during my installation, plus installation advice and I did not have to wait.

I'm a fan of AM Solar, even though I know that shop isn't cheap.

As a novice, I installed it all myself, including getting the app on my phone working; a no brainer, and they work GREAT!!!!! The Victrons went onto the board right where the two BZ Products controllers had been, with NO additional wiring or rework - nothing, especially since the Victrons may be monitored using a simple app for my iPhone!

I'm just getting around to testing the Victrons, so I ran my bank down a couple hundred amp hours last night, and I'm pulling in 16 amps (total) and it's not even 9am yet; these things are great.

Now, I'd have gone with the Midnight Solar Classic 150 if I had not been already wired up for a stacked system, but love these little 100/50s.

[outwestbound]

full_mosey wrote:
I use Morningstar Corp controllers. Instead of using their remote meters, I took advantage of their ability to communicate with the MODBUS protocol. This is the same protocol you find in OBD II that is used to retrieve codes from your vehicle's computer. MODBUS is a widely used industry standard communication protocol.

Here is an example graph of what I can see from my controller's point of view. I have more graphs.



I use a Raspberry Pi to collect this data at one minute intervals. The graph is summarized to the hour.

You will need to read my profile for a description of my systems. I have two systems; one in the Van, and the other in my TT. The graph is from the Van's system.

HTH;
John

Most awesome graph I've ever seen to understand this process. Well done.

[full_mosey]

I use Morningstar Corp controllers. Instead of using their remote meters, I took advantage of their ability to communicate with the MODBUS protocol. This is the same protocol you find in OBD II that is used to retrieve codes from your vehicle's computer. MODBUS is a widely used industry standard communication protocol.

Here is an example graph of what I can see from my controller's point of view. I have more graphs.



I use a Raspberry Pi to collect this data at one minute intervals. The graph is summarized to the hour.

You will need to read my profile for a description of my systems. I have two systems; one in the Van, and the other in my TT. The graph is from the Van's system.

HTH;
John

[outwestbound]

pianotuna wrote:
Hi,

There is something to be said for staying with one "family", so do check out the prices at Imarine for Magnum charge controllers.

Victon is top drawer stuff. AM solar would not be where I would buy a controller, or panels.

https://www.victronenergy.com/where-to-buy

I appreciate what you're saying about sticking with Magnum and regret not buying this controller initially. I got my MSH 3012 at Imarine; great place.

At this point, going to a single controller of any brand might be brain damaging, but I'll crawl into the fifth wheel tomorrow and see if it's possible given the space. Given where a single controller must go, I may not even have enough wire to get both arrays over to it, bla bla bla. I'll get in there and see tomorrow. If I can do it all myself, the magnum controller is only $150 more.

One reason I didn't use the magnum was it's physical size. My entire system is installed just behind the bulk head (the wall where the stairs go up in a fifth wheel to the upper bedroom). I moved water pipes, hvac vents, etc. and did specific carpentry work to provide for my system's install between the bulk head wall and the "garage" compartment wall in the fifth wheel. It's tight, was a pain to install, but my goals were met. This location provides a superior mechanical advantage in terms of weight distribution in my rig, since I had ample capacity in the trailer and little in my truck payload, plus my most forward compartment is not filled with equipment, and it's more secure and within conditioned space. That its so close to the living area also makes controllers with loud fans, like Midnight Classic, less desirable. Don't know about the fans in the magnum.

I'll scope out space and go from there. Thanks

[pianotuna]

Hi,

There is something to be said for staying with one "family", so do check out the prices at Imarine for Magnum charge controllers.

Victon is top drawer stuff. AM solar would not be where I would buy a controller, or panels.

https://www.victronenergy.com/where-to-buy

[outwestbound]

pianotuna wrote:
Hi outwestbound,

To adjust the Magnum charging rate, touch favs, then rotate the dial until F3 appears. That allows you to select the number of amps that the Magnum will draw from shore power (lowest setting is a mere 5 amps) or from a generator (in my case 24 amps from the Yamaha 2800 sIEB).

I do use this feature to limit my demand to 80% (12 amps for a 15 amp, 24 for 30, and 40 for a 50 amp shore power).

If you are in load support mode this will trigger it sooner. If there is poor voltage then limiting the amps can "force" the Magnum to do voltage support and not just load support. I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS.

Voltage support is best done with an autoformer.

Don't have "favs" on RC-50 display, but I have shore power, which allows increments of 5, so 10 and 15amps for the Honda 2000. I've got it on 15amps. Also, the "max charge" rate on the magnum was set at 80%, so I moved that down to 70%. The Honda wasn't tripping at a shore of 15 setting, but I'm thinking setting the max rate down to 70% will be a little more comfortable for the Honda.

I regret allowing these BZ controllers to be used, because the set points are not programmable and the AGM profile settings seem too low at bulk 14.00 for 2 hours, absorption at 14.00 and float at 13.7. Plus, they have no capacity to add a display, which was explained to me, but that now I regret accepting.

I'm not naming names, but I can tell you that the installation was done very well by a solar company with 25 years in the business, but these controllers are a weak link, it seems to me.

Because my system is already built for stacked controllers, I'm thinking of getting a couple Victron SmartSolar 100/50 MPPT controllers from AM Solar, which would allow me to monitor them via Bluetooth/ iPhone app. They fit in the same spaces vacated by the BZs, so no re-work expense. The Victron sizing tool indicates that my 3 panel, serial arrays are easily accommodated by each controller, but with no ability to add panels. If I add panels in the future, I'll just upsize a controller with a Morningstar controller. With 960 watts now and having more power than I could ever use it seems, getting bigger may be unlikely.

The Victrons have a form factor fitting the space, plus they have no fans, which I like because I'd hear them in my particular set up. After 30% credit, the swap is about $525 (less salvage value on the BZs, if any) to match the voltage to my batteries + have monitoring capability.

Oh well. Live and learn 🙂

[BFL13]

Batteries are a consumable item. They are not that expensive per year over say 5 years. No way spend thousands to make the batteries last a couple years longer than they would last otherwise. Save peanuts a month. Phooey, just get new batteries as needed.

You can just recharge two at a time with the gear you have now, no sweat. 415AH x 20 = 83 amps. The Honda 2000 can do that on a power-factor corrected charger. You don't have to do all four at the same time.

[outwestbound]

BFL13 wrote:

outwestbound wrote:

BFL13 wrote:
The OP should "recondition" his AGMs ASAP to make up for undercharging them so far, and then get on track.

What do I do to recondition them?

From that earlier link--
"REFRESH CHARGE
If Fullriver batteries are properly charged they
should never require an equalizing charge. If
they were not properly charged and there is a
decrease in capacity, recharge the batteries and
make sure they complete the entire charge cycle.

It appears from that, that you don't do an overcharge, but do a deep cycle. Draw them down to say 60% SOC at say their 20 hr rate (doing a pair of 6s at a time) 415/20 = 20.75 amps

Then recharge fully per instructions in that link (figure 1)

However, usually a recondition means a slight overcharge for a length of time, but I don't know how much for how long is good with AGMs. Fullriver seems to have its own way as above.

IMO, call their tech support and try to pin them down on what exactly to do in your situation. (please pass along what they say) I suppose the Magnum charger can be adjusted to do anything Fullriver wants, but if it can't, that's another issue. There are adjustable voltage chargers that can if the Magnum's adjustments aren't suitable.

Thank so much for all your help. I'll call Fullriver. I have a lot of reading to do to get caught up. The bank was installed 5/1/16. I was so busy working, I didn't use the solar until 5/1/17. During that first year of ownership, I was in parks mostly on 50, but also on some 30 amp pedestals, or it was winterized. From 9/1/16 to 4/30/17, the camper was winterized but plugged into a 15amp exterior plug at a home. I set the magnum shore setting down to 15 during this period of winterization, and the magnum's max charge rate was at it's default setting of 80%. When I checked it periodically over the winter, it as "floating".

Since 5/1/17, I've been boondocking a good bit, but also in parks also. Probably 50/50 that I've been on pedestals in which the magnum would have brought them up to full charge.

While I'm sure I didn't charge them fully while boondocking, it was close, because I charged them until the idiot SOC percent meter said 100%, but also when the I/O got to zero. The single meter reading wasn't accurate due to load.

I'm hoping they aren't damaged. They don't seem to be, but I'm not competent to know the difference.

I need to re-assess exactly what I have and how the settings are, but most importantly, correct my incompetence in operating the system. If I'm convinced I'm doing the best I can, and getting a 3.6 onan for $3,500 is the only thing that makes good sense, I'll do that. I am not going to set up 2 Hondas, if that's what it takes to get these fullrivers to 100%, and only one Honda will not achieve the amps required, cuz it's a 13.3 output, based on what I'm understanding in this thread.

Getting educated about how to operate the system will come in the next 30 days. For now, I need to learn more so I may ask intelligent questions.

Thanks again.

[BFL13]

outwestbound wrote:

BFL13 wrote:
The OP should "recondition" his AGMs ASAP to make up for undercharging them so far, and then get on track.

What do I do to recondition them?

From that earlier link--
"REFRESH CHARGE
If Fullriver batteries are properly charged they
should never require an equalizing charge. If
they were not properly charged and there is a
decrease in capacity, recharge the batteries and
make sure they complete the entire charge cycle.

It appears from that, that you don't do an overcharge, but do a deep cycle. Draw them down to say 60% SOC at say their 20 hr rate (doing a pair of 6s at a time) 415/20 = 20.75 amps

Then recharge fully per instructions in that link (figure 1)

However, usually a recondition means a slight overcharge for a length of time, but I don't know how much for how long is good with AGMs. Fullriver seems to have its own way as above.

IMO, call their tech support and try to pin them down on what exactly to do in your situation. (please pass along what they say) I suppose the Magnum charger can be adjusted to do anything Fullriver wants, but if it can't, that's another issue. There are adjustable voltage chargers that can if the Magnum's adjustments aren't suitable.

[outwestbound]

BFL13 wrote:
The OP should "recondition" his AGMs ASAP to make up for undercharging them so far, and then get on track.

What do I do to recondition them?

[BFL13]

The OP should "recondition" his AGMs ASAP to make up for undercharging them so far, and then get on track.

[red31]

The IUI profile is 14.7 till .02C then 13.65v float/taper.

The IUU profile is 14.7 till .02C then maintain .02C till dv/dt doen't change/hour up to 16.2v, .02C ~16A

I don't see 14.9v for 2 hrs/30days much of a top charge after days of 14.4v max.
Might see higher than .02C doing this but it is very limited in time/voltage. Likely still undercharged.

[BFL13]

PT, I think the OP wants to go away and think some. BTW,

"Flooded jars start to taper on charging at 85% SOC" is not correct. You have forgotten my ugly graph! 😞

The SOC when Absorption starts is a variable. A higher charging rate (amps/bank AH) means battery voltage will rise quicker and bulk ends at a lower SOC--could be 65% or anything really. With a lower charging rate Bulk might not end until 90% or so SOC.

Mex likes a high enough charging rate that battery voltage spikes immediately to near Vabs and amps taper from the start. That being the fastest recharge and so the least gen time.

However, the max charging rate can be limited by the battery spec, say 27% in one case. No matter, anything over 30% has little time advantage over 30%'s time since the battery just can't do its chemical change any faster. (except Lifeline AGMs somehow)