Sometimes small systems are plenty

[HiTech]

Friday my wife suddenly got the urge to camp. Immediately.

All the TT has is the original Group 24 battery, 5w solar to maintain it and a 700w/1500w inverter I've never even run under significant load. I didn't really need the system to do a lot since at 103 degrees in full sun we will be absolutely doing full hook ups.

Fired up the fridge at 8 am on propane. Pupmed the over chlorainated full water tank almost dry to be ready for use. Ran the compressor from home on the inverter to air up all 4 tires and headed to work.

At noon the freezer and fridge were cold so she loaded but did not even run the fan as the camper still held the cool from overnight.

1:05 PM we headed out for Fredericksburg and wine country.

The current set up is barely above factory, but the battery was brimming with charge and the inverter did everything we would have wanted except for the AC.

I actually think it is the ability to use the microwave that will finally push me to get the Deka AGMs put in the TT. Putting them in will mean i pit in the solar charger to maintain them without cooking the, dry or leaving the discharged. Other than the microwave though, there is just no burning need for us at the moment.

Now if I went crazy and got enough batteries and inverter to run the AC for an hour 15 times a year, that would he a horse of a different color.

😉

Jim (sipping a nice glass of 2010 Brennan Dark Horse)

[pnichols]

Mena,

You're less stressful concerns over camping electrical power are probably pretty common for us motorhome owners with our easy-start, easy-fuel-supply, built in generators and main engine alternators full-time-connected to our coach battery banks ... regardless of whether or not us motorhome owners have particularly huge battery banks or whether or not we have solar arrays on the roof. It's the pop-up trailer, regular trailer, fifth-wheel, and truck camper owners that as a rule have the hassles with storage, set-up, and securing of separate generators and the fuel supplies for them - especially if they don't have solar arrays at all ... or large enough solar arrays.

To camp in a low stress power source way, we know that if push comes to shove we can in any weather just push a button to start the Onan connected to a 55 gallon fuel tank or quietly idle the V10 connected to the same 55 gallon fuel tank. That's one reason we bought a motorized RV instead of a towable - convenience. We have a minor hassle in that we use a very small super-quiet generator to replace solar panels. Now ... if only we could reach the same camping spots as a TC can ...

I suppose the ultimate non-hassle power sourcing setup for any weather any time drycamping is a well-installed, quiet, large built-in generator for air conditioning, a large battery bank, and a 24/7 automatic battery-top-up fuel cell so that having the sun is of no concern/worry. This is an expensive arrangement, though. 😉

[mena661]

HiTech wrote:
Me, I'd rather have fewer types of systems, and more devices that run on as many of the systems as possible. The idea of 4 systems and too many devices that only run on 1 or 2 just bugs me. But the economics and availability of AC only devices (gensets, microwaves, air conditioning, some fridges, some water heaters) means it is hard to make a case not to optimize around them.

X2, but then my idea of KISS is other people's complicated BUT I've also heard some say "that's all you have to do?" at least once per trip when others SEE what I actually do which is not much. LOL! For example, being able to sit in a chair on the beach without having to "worry" about what SOC my batteries are at or I forgot to fill the gas cans or whether I remembered to bring the chain and lock for the genny or having a long pre-camp preparation list. So, I'll do some complicated stuff to make that camping trip simple. The DW and I pack minimal clothes, put food in the fridge (a good bit of that comes from our home fridge), start up the MH and go. Arrive at camp, put down the jacks, put out the slide, turn on the inverter. Simple.

[HiTech]

It's funny the variety of energy systems we have based partly on history and partly on energy density in storage. An all 12v genset and running many systems there would be interesting too, but really it would work better if the systems that need heat had a propane option, including propane powered AC.

Redundancy in the event of a failure is good, but vehicle fuel, propane, AC and DC seems to be a bit much.

A CNG vehicle along with CNG systems would start to make more sense. Or a DC Genset. Or an AC only electrical system with multiple ways to generate AC such as a genset and an inverter.

Me, I'd rather have fewer types of systems, and more devices that run on as many of the systems as possible. The idea of 4 systems and too many devices that only run on 1 or 2 just bugs me. But the economics and availability of AC only devices (gensets, microwaves, air conditioning, some fridges, some water heaters) means it is hard to make a case not to optimize around them.

Jim

[pnichols]

Old & Slow wrote:
I see Honda sells in India, the EX650. The one now selling on EBay looks kinda ragged.

Here's another recent (I think) posting for an EX650 that appears to be in better condition:

http://www.reachoo.com/ads/143490721?utm_source=yakaz

I'm a fan of keeping the RV power solution both small and simple. For example, since battery systems are always DC output and way less than 120 volts, why put up with all the power losses you get by transforming low DC volts up to high AC volts?

Keep as much as possible all RV electrical needs in the 12 volt direct current world for minimum losses. For air conditioning use a big generator if you want the camping flexibility to be able to be comfortable camping in the heat. Use a very small super quiet generator or trust the sun enough for solar charging of the battery(ies). Use an inverter occasionally for the microwave if you don't want to use the big generator or don't have air conditioning (hence no big generator). By the way, 12 volt microwaves do exist if you want to hook them up via big cables directly to your RV's battery bank.

Regarding "lousy 12 volt powered" TVs. We have a superb 26 inch LED TV that "seems to" operate from 120 volts AC, but ... actually uses an external brick to make this happen. The brick merely changes 120 Volts AC into 18 volts DC for the TV's circuits. If I change out the brick that came with it for a 12 volt DC to 18 volt DC upconversion DC-to-DC upconverter brick ... then I have a superb "12 volt" TV without suffering the losses from using inversion to make 120 volts AC out of 12 volts DC.

Interestingly, take a look at the systems in Earthroamers. They're based solely on diesel from the main engine's tank, solar panels on the roof, and of course huge storage battery capacity - no propane and no generators. Earthroamer kindof "cheats", though, in that advocate idling the big diesel engine and using it's dual alternators to charge the huge battery bank during extended cloudy weather. I prefer a very small quiet generator for this function with use of idling of the big engine with it's alternator(s) being only an extreme situation battery charging backup.

[Almot]

mena661 wrote:
Almot, I occasionally run through the exercise of running from just solar and batteries (from a full timers POV) with a mostly electric or all-electric rig. Can be done but not "practical" with FLA batteries (FLA's require occasional equalizations which requires duplicate banks) and not on the cheap either and not with limited space. If you ignore A/C usage it's easy. MUCH harder with A/C usage. Problem is not storage, it's charging.

I don't know what we are arguing about, anymore. Yes, A/C is nearly impossible without generator or shore power. Luckily, this is the ONLY 120V item that you have to have - when it's hot - otherwise you will suffer, can't stay inside and can't sleep well. You will not suffer if you stop using any other 120V item for 2-3 days, not physically anyway. Though I can believe that for some people staying away from TV would cause enormous mental suffering, tantamount to what teenager is feeling when texting function in his Iphone stops working for half an hour.

There is no problem with equalization while on solar. Most controllers even have a designated button for that. Getting to 100% SOC every day - while on solar - is a different matter, you would need to be close to ABS stage early in the morning, never using more than 25%-30% of the bank overnight. Not possible with 120V fridge, and difficult with microwave, and with most other 120V devices - because most of them are power hogs. With few exceptions like small TV or electric shaver, they all draw "mere" few amps @120V, we never give it a second thought in a shore home. But this equals to dozens amps @12V.

How fulltimers get around this problem - don't know. Have yet to see a fulltimer that is using most of those 120V items that people have in their homes (even excluding A/C), and who is not either plugged in at all times, or runs generator every day. Handy Bob - well, I haven't seen the guy. His batteries must be working hard.

[HiTech]

Don't forget a 24v panel can charge a 12 or 24 v bank, and can do it with or without a solar charge controller (you need to watch it the way you would a manual charger if you do not use a controller).

Well once again having the AGMs and bigger inverter at the house paid off. Lost power again today. Alternated running the garage fridge and house fridge from the AGMs and 700w inverter with great success.

Jim

[Old___Slow]

mena661 wrote:
O&S, I'd like to get into a TC but none, at the time I looked, had large enough water capacity for me and not much interior space. I recently discovered Eagle Cap rigs which have more FW storage than my MH, three slides and a small kitchen island!! Wish I would've seen those earlier, I would've gotten one of those instead.

Mena, ma man,

I love your RV/MH. Me, I need to think small for several reasons. First, DW is now the only road driver and she just would not try and drive the MH. Then I want something that will fit in the driveway and not upset the Home Owners Assn. I guess I need to admit it will need A/C as these Texas summers are HOT HOT. But when no A/C is needed, I want to go somewhat back back to my youth type camping. Is that possible.

Have a great 4th.

O&S

[mena661]

O&S, I'd like to get into a TC but none, at the time I looked, had large enough water capacity for me and not much interior space. I recently discovered Eagle Cap rigs which have more FW storage than my MH, three slides and a small kitchen island!! Wish I would've seen those earlier, I would've gotten one of those instead.

[Old___Slow]

HiTech wrote:
O&S,

When I was a Boy Scout we want in canoes down class 5 rapids 100 miles along the Shenedoah with all our camping gear. When it did not kill us, being kids, we made camp, dragged the canoes back above the rapids and did it again. I think the only electric devices we had were flashlights.

My Opa lived with the Menonites. They taught him to blacksmith and he taught me a few of the basics as a teenager.

Fun then, but I would miss my air conditioning now. I think modern day Amish would be equivalent to living without 200 amp service and 100mb Internet. Yes this may be most of us, But gig Internet is becoming mainstream very quickly.

So to the original topic. I left the little interstate SRM 24 running the Travel Trailer parasitic loads from Sunday to today (almost exactly 72 hours). Voltage was 12.76v under load with no solar boost. This is one perky little battery (84 amp hours). Others I have start lower than that as a fully charged rest voltage. The high voltage makes me think high specific gravity, which will mean a short but spectacular life in these local temps. But I still cannot help but admire the little battery's gumption. If I ever get a good calibrated hydrometer I may try tropicalizing it.

Interstate SRM-24

Jim

Jim

Nice post and just the info' I needed for a cabin trial run with one batt. Need to find some use for the extra 120w/24v panel I have on hand.

Now, here is the deal for me. I've been put on this idea of "small is better". To much extra baggage on hand. I had a MH on Canyon lake I was not using. So put a sign on the rig with the Golf Club car. Sold it the next day. I even want to down size more and sell the 5th wheel we use as a condo on the Gulf Coast. With it's two A/Cs:B My wish list now has at the top 'One small travel van of some kind' Cover the top with PV panels.

I see Honda sells in India, the EX650. The one now selling on EBay looks kinda ragged. Anyway, for help with the PV panels is a big question. If perhaps any help is needed. One new day might bring adventure like we had as kids. I'm just an older 'big kid', so said the DW.

O&S

[mena661]

Almot, I occasionally run through the exercise of running from just solar and batteries (from a full timers POV) with a mostly electric or all-electric rig. Can be done but not "practical" with FLA batteries (FLA's require occasional equalizations which requires duplicate banks) and not on the cheap either and not with limited space. If you ignore A/C usage it's easy. MUCH harder with A/C usage. Problem is not storage, it's charging. You need two massive banks, 1500Ah each plus another 200Ah for everything else per day!!! If you could get 4 235W panels on the roof you could replenish 300Ah per day but that won't make up for the A/C. Might as well just skip solar and invest in some big chargers since you'll have to do that once a day anyways. I agree with you that A/C usage is best left to the generator but everything else can be run from batteries and solar given a big enough budget and roof space.

[HiTech]

O&S,

When I was a Boy Scout we want in canoes down class 5 rapids 100 miles along the Shenedoah with all our camping gear. When it did not kill us, being kids, we made camp, dragged the canoes back above the rapids and did it again. I think the only electric devices we had were flashlights.

My Opa lived with the Menonites. They taught him to blacksmith and he taught me a few of the basics as a teenager.

Fun then, but I would miss my air conditioning now. I think modern day Amish would be equivalent to living without 200 amp service and 100mb Internet. Yes this may be most of us, But gig Internet is becoming mainstream very quickly.

So to the original topic. I left the little interstate SRM 24 running the Travel Trailer parasitic loads from Sunday to today (almost exactly 72 hours). Voltage was 12.76v under load with no solar boost. This is one perky little battery (84 amp hours). Others I have start lower than that as a fully charged rest voltage. The high voltage makes me think high specific gravity, which will mean a short but spectacular life in these local temps. But I still cannot help but admire the little battery's gumption. If I ever get a good calibrated hydrometer I may try tropicalizing it.

Interstate SRM-24

Jim

[Almot]

O&S, portable LED lights are superior to candles in nearly every way. And they need neither big nor small "system" on trips up to one month, a handful of AA batteries will do. Makes a good backup. I keep candle lantern for emergencies though. As a backup to a LED backup.

[Old___Slow]

Sometimes I just want to return to 'Camping' and not 'RV'ing' or if a dog sled is the RV of choice, no small system needed. Candles if one needs light. No worries.

O&S

[Almot]

RE: 120V frig. Impossible without shore power or daily generator. MrWiz has what - 200W solar? - don't remember, not a "small system" by RV measures. And he runs generator daily, to feed the frig.

[BFL13]

".. pump? .... Probably expensive, considering inflation."

Hey Almot made a joke! 🙂