Using TT in sub-freezing temps/elect. What's required?

[EstorilM]

Hi everyone,
There's a possibility that I may need to use my TT for a month or two this fall when temps may fall below freezing (and for future reference, I'm curious about this in general).

The 2570RL has the arctic package and is fully enclosed, but I'm not sure exactly how much that helps in the real world.

My main issue is that I'll probably be running electric heat, which obviously bypasses all of the heat ducts underneath that likely keep everything well above freezing.

Has anyone just modified an electric ceramic-type heater into the existing floor ducting so that you can heat the interior while still bleeding enough heat off to keep the pipes from freezing? It's an RL so has 2 grey tanks, one for galley and one for the bathroom - the plumbing is rather spread out for its size.

[vjstangelo]

My experience has been that a 1500 W heater will mostly do the job, but the propane will come on from time to time as the electric heater fails to maintain setpoint. This will be enough to keep the bays over 32 in outside temps in the high 20F.

[Rick_Jay]

EstorilM,

If it's only going to drop down into the mid-20's on occasion, I don't think you're going to have to worry about pipes freezing IF you're going to be keeping the inside of the rig at habitable temperatures during the night. Especially if your daytime temps are consistently in the high 30's and above.

There can be other factors which come into play such as being in the shade so the daytime sun doesn't warm the rig, or persistent windy conditions.

There is one thing you have to be aware of if you use electric space heaters inside when it gets very cold outside. If the electric heaters keep it warm enough inside so that the furnace doesn't kick in, you could have issues with the pipes freezing. You can either play games with the thermostat settings of the furnace and electric heaters, OR, on those nights when you KNOW it's going to be well below freezing, let the furnace do the heating.

I, too, generally try not to use propane for heating unless necessary. I have purchased a couple of 200W space heaters (like this) and a thermostat controlled power cord (like this) and set the temperature on the thermostat to about 30 degrees. I put one heater in my water bay (water pump & dump valves) and another back near the freshwater tank. In the "old days" LOL you used to be able to hang a 100W incandescent lamp in the water bay to provide heat. Those bulbs are getting harder to come by, PLUS they can burn out or fail. For the peace of mind, I prefer the small personal space heaters instead. I believe them to be more reliable, albeit at a higher buy-in cost.

I often keep our rig "ready to roll" as late into the season as possible, sometimes even after the first couple of snow falls if I think we'll be able to get away. With the above system, I have had no issues with any water freezing when the temps drop as low 15 degrees while we're inside the rig being heated with electric heaters. If
it's going to drop colder than that, we do have to run the furnace, or it's likely the water will freeze in the pipe from the water tank to the water bay. (Never had a pipe burst, though, just took a while of running the furnace to get the water flowing again.) ONE of these days I'd like to either put heater-tape around that section of pipe or another portable space heater in that area...but it's not really much of a priority at all, since now I know to just run the propane as the temps head to the single digits. Plus, it would be a pain to get to! LOL

But from your description of the conditions, I don't think it's going to be too hard to keep everything working.

Good luck,

~Rick

[old_guy]

you can also go a much bigger propane tank from a propane dealership

[ScottG]

Main problems will be heating the underbelly with its tanks and water lines and condensation inside the RV.
You'll need to run the furnace and figure out something for the condensation.
After watching my in-laws try this one winter, I would never attempt it (and they never did it again either)

[Second_Chance]

EstorilM wrote:

Second Chance wrote:
If you want to go all-electric with your main furnace and keep the basement thawed, this is the way to go:

Cheap Heat

The installation is pricey, but lots of full-timers swear by them. We have weathered stretches of single-digit lows and sub-freezing highs for a week or two at a time (often with 40 MPH winds) on propane heat. We supplement with the electric fireplace and put a ceramic heater on a thermostat in the basement to help, but always make sure the main furnace is cycling. At the worst, we've gone through 30 lbs. of propane in about 3 days.

We use a heated water hose but fill up the fresh tank, disconnect the water and use the pump on the coldest of nights. I wait until sunny afternoons to drain the waste tanks so the stinky slinky doesn't freeze up, too. Reflectix cut to fit in the windows helps if you don't have dual pane windows.

Rob

Wow thanks, for that price I might as well go that route - I have a decent background in electrical work so it doesn't sound too scary, though tearing everything apart and pulling the wires is always the worst part.

It was unclear if you used that system or just the propane w/ ceramic underneath?

Sounds like either way, the key is to have the ducting in the basement carrying heat in some capacity.
edit: Ouch I was looking at the wrong one, not the add-on unit I need haha.

We do not have the cheap heat system - used the main furnace on propane all the time and the fireplace and ceramic heater in the basement to supplement. Always made sure the electric heaters DID NOT prevent the main furnace from cycling regularly. Thus the propane consumption cited.

Rob

[myredracer]

Dang. Dup. Ignore and move on...

[myredracer]

Heat? You want to talk heat? The heat as of late has nearly killed me... 😞

Curious what the Springdale has for an arctic package? Thicker walls, better insulation in ceiling or?

Our 29' KZ TT has standard insulation and 30 amp service. I installed 3 permanent recessed electric heaters totalling 2,000 watts and never use the furnace anymore (4 seasons now). We've camped all the way through the fall and even into Dec. The heating does struggle by the time it gets down to freezing tho. and need to wear thick socks and/or slippers or shoes. The floor gets cold due to lack of heat under it and the air inside stratifies. Temps have dipped a bit below freezing and been fine. The only thing that will freeze is the water hose out to the pedestal. For a couple of degrees below freezing or so, there's enough heat radiating into the floor to protect piping and tanks. This heating setup keeps the TT toasty warm and evenly heated end to end.

If your insulation is truly better than standard, 1500 - 2,000 watts should work fine. But... In cold weather you need to exhaust moisture laden air out or use a dehumidifier. If you don't, moisture will migrate through the walls and ceiling where it will condense on the cold exterior skin and lead to rot & mold. In our TT, I sealed up all the holes in the floor. If you seal up every crack & hole to retain heat and not remove the moisture, you will have issues if you camp often enough in cold weather. I would look at using a dehumidifier if you want to camp more than the occasional weekend in cold weather.

These photos show the heaters I installed. Two recessed King pic-a-watt (adjustable setting) fan forced (axial blades) heaters and in the kitchen/living area, a 1,000 watt kick space heater. The kick space heater is the same width as the stove and all I had to do was remove the blank panel that was there. I installed a low voltage thermostat in each room/area but line voltage would work too. I built my own demand controller so that when a toaster, coffee maker, hair dryer or other appliance is plugged in, the heaters are automatically temporarily shut off. Could be done with a manual switch if you don't forget to turn the heaters off and back on.

Running wires concealed through the ceiling, interior walls, behind the shower, etc. was relatively straightforward but time consuming. Best mod I've ever done in a TT. It's VERY quiet too. Too bad it's not offered as an option by a TT manufacturer.

For reasons I don't want to get into, I wouldn't go with Cheapheat.

[RedRocket204]

The post in the Full-time RVing forum has a great first post on winter camping in RVs. Would be good for you to read that thread's first post and pull out some info in there that might help you.

Winter RV camping

[EstorilM]

troubledwaters wrote:
So how much in propane is it worth to you to risk freezing the pipes? If it was me, I'd be running the furnace and hoping to high heaven that that is sufficient enough to keep the pipes from freezing.

After that depending on how bad it gets, it may be straw bales around the perimeter and a heater or two underneath.

YOMV

Eh it just seems wasteful to be plugged in an be burning propane - no one will be inside during the day either.

It's completely sealed up underneath so I wouldn't need to put bales around it or anything.. I've never actually accessed anything under there yet, so I really don't know what it looks like to be honest.

Again though, this is probably going to be in the late fall - maybe mid 20s worst case scenario for a night or two.

[EstorilM]

time2roll wrote:
How cold is cold? 25F at sunrise and most RVs are just fine running the furnace. Much below that you will need to start adding electric heaters to any exposed tanks and pipes. At some point pipes in the walls and floor may start to have freeze ups with additional measures needed or you can winterize and use bottled water. Your furnace could be running close to continuous so an extra cylinder or two of propane may help along with an electric space heater.

That sounds about right - I don't think it would be in the middle of winter or anything.

Those wireless thermometers are super cheap on amazon these days. Maybe my first step should just be to put 3 or 4 sensors in the basement around critical areas and label the displays so I know what's going on.

Most of the time no one will be inside during the day, so I'd like to leave the main area off - suppose that implies I should separate the systems and have something independent underneath.

I don't even know how to access the area or where I could find an open space for a heater, it's sealed up really well. I guess I could call Keystone and see if they have a rough layout for everything under the floor.

[troubledwaters]

So how much in propane is it worth to you to risk freezing the pipes? If it was me, I'd be running the furnace and hoping to high heaven that that is sufficient enough to keep the pipes from freezing.

After that depending on how bad it gets, it may be straw bales around the perimeter and a heater or two underneath.

YOMV

[time2roll]

How cold is cold? 25F at sunrise and most RVs are just fine running the furnace. Much below that you will need to start adding electric heaters to any exposed tanks and pipes. At some point pipes in the walls and floor may start to have freeze ups with additional measures needed or you can winterize and use bottled water. Your furnace could be running near continuous so an extra cylinder or two of propane may help along with an electric space heater. Also need to add heat to the outside fridge compartment to keep the system working.

[EstorilM]

Second Chance wrote:
If you want to go all-electric with your main furnace and keep the basement thawed, this is the way to go:

Cheap Heat

The installation is pricey, but lots of full-timers swear by them. We have weathered stretches of single-digit lows and sub-freezing highs for a week or two at a time (often with 40 MPH winds) on propane heat. We supplement with the electric fireplace and put a ceramic heater on a thermostat in the basement to help, but always make sure the main furnace is cycling. At the worst, we've gone through 30 lbs. of propane in about 3 days.

We use a heated water hose but fill up the fresh tank, disconnect the water and use the pump on the coldest of nights. I wait until sunny afternoons to drain the waste tanks so the stinky slinky doesn't freeze up, too. Reflectix cut to fit in the windows helps if you don't have dual pane windows.

Rob

Wow thanks, for that price I might as well go that route - I have a decent background in electrical work so it doesn't sound too scary, though tearing everything apart and pulling the wires is always the worst part.

It was unclear if you used that system or just the propane w/ ceramic underneath?

Sounds like either way, the key is to have the ducting in the basement carrying heat in some capacity.
edit: Ouch I was looking at the wrong one, not the add-on unit I need haha.

downtheroad wrote:
Not sure why you don't use your furnace also...but if you are going to only use a stand alone electric heater inside....could you get another one and place it underneath blowing heat to help keep your plumbing from freezing..

Yeah it just might be an extended period of time, and was thinking about avoiding the propane cost / lugging the cylinders around is all.

[downtheroad]

Not sure why you don't use your furnace also...but if you are going to only use a stand alone electric heater inside....could you get another one and place it underneath blowing heat to help keep your plumbing from freezing..