Whole RV Inverter/Charger

[LipschitzWrath]

Not a lot of information out there so I figured I'd post here.

If like to add an inverter for my 5er, mainly to limit inconvenient trips out to get the generators running for small things. One of the first things that comes to mind is the coffee pot. That's about the only AC power we use in the morning.

Anyways, I have this ambitious goal to have the inverter be capable of powering the whole camper, rather than just a few outlets or a sub panel or whatever. I'd also like to do a combo inverter/charger (IC) in place of my converter to streamline things, especially the transfer switch duties. I'm trying to confirm my thinking is correct.

The inverter I'd like to use is a Victron Multiplus 12/2000/80.

In my mind, the way this would be accomplished is to take the wire that is normally connected to the shore power inlet on the side of the camper and connect it to the AC output side of the IC. I would then run wire from the actual shore power input receptacle to the input side of the IC. With the transfer switch capabilities of the Victron, it seems like this would work correctly when plugged into shore power or portable generators, yet still let the whole RV function off the inverter when not. Am I correct?

Next question. Technically my RV is set up for a 50A, 240V input. I normally run it off of 120V. I'm assuming my RV is set up like a house - half the 120 circuit in the box come off of L1 on the 240V and the other half come off L2. If I'm correct, wouldn't I technically need two IC's as illustrated in Victron's "split phase" diagram?

Any help is much appreciated.

[CA_Traveler]

Power off, remove the CB panel and find out what circuits are on L1 and L2. Remove lights, speakers, etc and look for access. My cabinets have decorative inside panels that are held with wire brads and glue, easy to remove. You may need to remove under rig paneling for access. Interior walls are likely hollow. I’ve run wiring in exterior walls that have insulation. Check, be creative, etc.
Yes ATS = Automatic Transfer Switch, Victron let alone 2 is high dollar. How would you use one inverter for a whole house? You’ll need to switch those wires somehow.
Some charger/inverters have a built in ATS and CB protected outputs. No sub panel needed.
Many rigs have a built in gen and an ATS is used to automatically switch between shore power or gen power. So when you read about an ATS be clear about the application.
An charger/inverter can either charge the batteries from the charger or supply 120V from the inverter. It will automatically switch when it senses AC input but it does not do both at the same time. Some like separate units for various reasons but you have to manually select one or the other. Using the inverter output running from batteries to run the charger is a sure way to run down the batteries. No free energy.

[LipschitzWrath]

CA Traveler wrote:
None of us have yet suggested the obvious: You should do a energy audit and determine just how much DC power you would expect to use. Lights, TV, coffee maker, etc. The AC part involves the inverter DC usage.

All of this ties into the charger, inverter and battery size you will need. And it ties into how you will charge the batteries. Typically gen or solar. Or adequate battery capacity until the next pedestal is available.

Energy audit sounds necessary for sure.

Without running the numbers, I can tell you that main uses would be occasional and short use of the microwave, a pot of coffee in the morning, and maybe some TV when we get rained (or blown) in out at the lake. Would also be nice to be able to charge our phones with the bedside outlet at night. Lastly (and ideally), I'd like to be able to use the inverter to "boost assist" with appliance startups, like when I get greedy and want to use the microwave while the AC is running. (<-- this is where you guys tell me how lazy I am for not wanting to shut off the AC long enough to heat up some leftovers)

In a nutshell, any of my 110V inverter usage would be one of two categories - low-draw, longer-period use (think cell phone charger), or high-draw, short-period use (think coffee pot). I guess watching a movie in the rain would be medium-draw, medium-period use. Generators would be used shortly after these periods to top the batteries back off.

At this point, I have no aspirations to be able to go days on end without using the generators. I view my application as one of convenience, not necessity.

I would say that 99.9% of the time we boondock. To date, we haven't stayed in a campground yet. To continue on further with my laziness tangent, I'm not afraid at all to use the generators, that's what I bought them for. We bring plenty of gas and we aren't confined to certain times we can/can't use them. It's more about having to go out and start the **** things to do something like make coffee or nuke something. Generators with remote start would have been a good idea, but I've got too much sunk into these brand new Yami's to consider changing now.

Overall, I may just have to quit being so picky about not being power-conscious when camping. Maybe I need to get over running the microwave and AC at the same time with only 4000 watts of generator. I was thinking that maybe an inverter that can boost would get me over the hump, as well as providing some occasional 110V convenience without having to go start the generators.

[LipschitzWrath]

CA Traveler wrote:

LipschitzWrath wrote:
There were two drivers for wanting to go whole RV. One, it seems like it would be very difficult for me to re-wire dedicated outlets. Mainly, it is access related. It seems like everything is enclosed in my 5er and I don't know how to access the wiring on pretty much any of it.

Can't you access the circuits at the CB panel? Or at plug locations? I've run wires in various walls etc you just have to start checking them out.

The other driver was to take advantage of the "assist" function of the Multiplus.

Some rigs have the Magnum hybrid inverters.

As far as two inverters, that's another issue altogether. One poster suggested just connect the L1 and L2 lines on my 240V input, essentially creating a 120V system in the entire RV. While that sounds doable, what would happen if I ever did actually connect to 240V shore power? I'm envisioning fireworks, but I may just not be thinking about this right.

My suggestion and you definitely don't want a permanent direct short. Think about the 30/50A adapter that connects L1/L2. With a whole house inverter you need to do the same unless your you have 120/240V equivalent inverter. It could be a ATS or other automated approach.

It all boils down to my laziness. I guess maybe broadening my goal may present other options. We have the percolator idea with it's unbeatable KISS allure. What other options to I have to:

1) Be able to run 110V loads in the camper without having to go outside and pull start my two Yamaha's?

2) Allow me to run other power-hungry 110V appliances (microwave, coffee maker) while the AC is on?

Nothing you've suggested is laziness except to push the button after installation.

A basic setup: 2000W charger/inverter with built in ATS and remote panel. 30A AC circuit from the CB panel. 2 20A AC CB protected outputs. Your basic plug circuits are connected to these outputs. This may include TV, MW, etc but not heavy loads like the refer, HW, etc.

Charging is automatic when pedestal or gen AC is available. Large loads are not connected to the inverter so no need to switch to propane as this is automatic.

Don't need to go outside, change the refer etc. Just plain "lazy".


You guys don't need to be gentle with me. I understand the lunacy in my requests.

Most of us try to be nice. :B

I can certainly access the circuits at the breaker panel, but then the question becomes how can I get the inverter output to the breaker panel? Same problem. There is obviously something simple about fishing wire in an RV that I am not understanding. But when I crawl under my RV, there is NOTHING exposed and it doesn't look like there are access panels anywhere.

The L1/L2 thing: that's why I asked about the "split-phase" example from Victron. If you only feed one 1 leg, then half the circuits in my camper wouldn't be fed. That could be good or bad, but something tells me my luck isn't good enough to have all the circuits I want fed on the same leg. I suppose you could start changing breakers and feeds at the breaker panel to get the desired outcome. That might be the way to go, now that you mention it.

I'm guessing ATS = Automatic Transfer Switch? If so, I believe the Victron Multiplus has that. Am I missing something?

Would you mind expounding more on your example? Are you saying to take a 30A feed from the breaker panel and power the inverter/ATS from that? Then take the outputs from the inverter and feed whatever circuits I want to power from that? Would a subpanel be required in your example? I dunno where I'd put a sub.

Would your example allow the inverter to take over the duties of the converter (battery charging/12V supply)?

In my mind, it seems like that would work. The breakers would still be "fed" by shore/gen when in use via the transfer switch, yet would be active with 120V from the inverter when not connected to shore/gen. Sounds pretty elegant.

This is the kind of info I'm looking for.

[CA_Traveler]

None of us have yet suggested the obvious: You should do a energy audit and determine just how much DC power you would expect to use. Lights, TV, coffee maker, etc. The AC part involves the inverter DC usage.

All of this ties into the charger, inverter and battery size you will need. And it ties into how you will charge the batteries. Typically gen or solar. Or adequate battery capacity until the next pedestal is available.

[CA_Traveler]

LipschitzWrath wrote:
There were two drivers for wanting to go whole RV. One, it seems like it would be very difficult for me to re-wire dedicated outlets. Mainly, it is access related. It seems like everything is enclosed in my 5er and I don't know how to access the wiring on pretty much any of it.

Can't you access the circuits at the CB panel? Or at plug locations? I've run wires in various walls etc you just have to start checking them out.

The other driver was to take advantage of the "assist" function of the Multiplus.

Some rigs have the Magnum hybrid inverters.

As far as two inverters, that's another issue altogether. One poster suggested just connect the L1 and L2 lines on my 240V input, essentially creating a 120V system in the entire RV. While that sounds doable, what would happen if I ever did actually connect to 240V shore power? I'm envisioning fireworks, but I may just not be thinking about this right.

My suggestion and you definitely don't want a permanent direct short. Think about the 30/50A adapter that connects L1/L2. With a whole house inverter you need to do the same unless your you have 120/240V equivalent inverter. It could be a ATS or other automated approach.

It all boils down to my laziness. I guess maybe broadening my goal may present other options. We have the percolator idea with it's unbeatable KISS allure. What other options to I have to:

1) Be able to run 110V loads in the camper without having to go outside and pull start my two Yamaha's?

2) Allow me to run other power-hungry 110V appliances (microwave, coffee maker) while the AC is on?

Nothing you've suggested is laziness except to push the button after installation.

A basic setup: 2000W charger/inverter with built in ATS and remote panel. 30A AC circuit from the CB panel. 2 20A AC CB protected outputs. Your basic plug circuits are connected to these outputs. This may include TV, MW, etc but not heavy loads like the refer, HW, etc.

Charging is automatic when pedestal or gen AC is available. Large loads are not connected to the inverter so no need to switch to propane as this is automatic.

Don't need to go outside, change the refer etc. Just plain "lazy".


You guys don't need to be gentle with me. I understand the lunacy in my requests.

Most of us try to be nice. :B

[LipschitzWrath]

Apologies for not being part of the discussion, I forgot to subscribe to the topic.

You guys have brought up a LOT of good information and several things I wasn't considering. The fridge running off the inverter by default is one of them. I can definitely see myself forgetting to switch the fridge over to gas when cutting off the generators and just absolutely running my batteries down. With a whole RV inverter, they would default to the 120 inverter any time the generator wasn't running.

There were two drivers for wanting to go whole RV. One, it seems like it would be very difficult for me to re-wire dedicated outlets. Mainly, it is access related. It seems like everything is enclosed in my 5er and I don't know how to access the wiring on pretty much any of it. Are these insulated panels removable? How do all of you guys get to this wiring? This led me to believe that wiring the whole trailer would be easier, as I could "intercept" the shore power input (which is moderately accessible) and only have to deal with the wiring once. Obviously, there are some flaws there.

The other driver was to take advantage of the "assist" function of the Multiplus. I just installed a Micro-Air on the air conditioning and that helped out tremendously, but I still can't do things like get the microwave to start with the AC running. I am going to play around a little more tonight (just installed the MA last night) and see what I can and can't run with the AC. Could be a simple power management problem, like putting the fridge on gas when I want to run the AC and microwave at the same time. I am running a pair of Yamaha EF2000isV2 generators, by the way. Anyways, having the inverter serve the whole RV would allow everything in the RV to be "boosted" by the inverter, namely things that don't plug into an outlet (like the microwave).

The cost of the system the way I described it is definitely excessive. To actually have a usable system, I would certainly have to add a bunch of batteries. I guess I didn't tally up the system as I was designing it. Running two inverters would easily push the system (including batteries) north of $3k. As another poster alluded to, that's an expensive cup of joe.

As far as two inverters, that's another issue altogether. One poster suggested just connect the L1 and L2 lines on my 240V input, essentially creating a 120V system in the entire RV. While that sounds doable, what would happen if I ever did actually connect to 240V shore power? I'm envisioning fireworks, but I may just not be thinking about this right. I ask because this will be a reality. I move into a new house next month and it has a 240V 50A hookup on the side for the garage. I know that I could come off of that and create a 120V 30A hookup, but it seems like I am converting something that my camper can readily accept because I modified the wiring in the camper. Before anyone else says, yes, I know, it's my fault because I am making this an overly complicated Rube Goldberg machine.

I still want to hear what ideas you guys have and any input is still very welcome. It sounds like my inverter idea is biting off more than I was prepared to chew and comes with it's own set of problems. With the price tag ballooning, I'm approaching the territory where an onboard Onan is becoming feasible.

It all boils down to my laziness. I guess maybe broadening my goal may present other options. We have the percolator idea with it's unbeatable KISS allure. What other options to I have to:

1) Be able to run 110V loads in the camper without having to go outside and pull start my two Yamaha's?

2) Allow me to run other power-hungry 110V appliances (microwave, coffee maker) while the AC is on?


You guys don't need to be gentle with me. I understand the lunacy in my requests.

[Byrogie]

Depends on how much coffee you want.
For us:
2x6 volt batteries, Shore cord plugged into 1000 watt inverter, 200 watts solar.
Converter, AC,Microwave breakers off.
Fridge and water heater on propane.
5 cup coffee pot pulls 500 watts, usually make 2, put in thermos carafe.
LED lights, small hair dryer, TV, small fans. A couple of nights with furnace if required.
Good to go......

[SoundGuy]

LipschitzWrath wrote:
If like to add an inverter for my 5er, mainly to limit inconvenient trips out to get the generators running for small things. One of the first things that comes to mind is the coffee pot. That's about the only AC power we use in the morning.

Anyways, I have this ambitious goal to have the inverter be capable of powering the whole camper, rather than just a few outlets or a sub panel or whatever. I'd also like to do a combo inverter/charger (IC) in place of my converter to streamline things, especially the transfer switch duties. I'm trying to confirm my thinking is correct.

Nothing particularly wrong with your plan but having initially wired my own inverter "whole house" but then later deciding dedicated receptacles was a much simpler, cleaner approach when all I wanted to do was occasionally power a few limited items - toaster, coffee maker, a couple of fans, my wife's hair dryer, phone charger, etc, I'd recommend the latter. In my case, I suspended the inverter in our rig's front pass through cargo compartment where it's close to the battery but has plenty of air around it for cooling. Ran one of the inverter's output receptacles to the outside world, the second I ran to a junction box where I then wired the feed out to duplex receptacles on either side of the bed and a third located at the galley. I can control the inverter with the remote located in a cabinet next to the bed ... if we lose shore power I don't even have to get out of bed to turn it on, no need to turn off the converter, force the fridge to gas, make sure the water heater is running on gas only, and no need for a transfer switch. K.I.S.S. :B

[2oldman]

Whole-house inverting is fine. Been doing that for years. I'm sure you have more uses planned than making coffee, like watching TV.

[MrWizard]

LipschitzWrath wrote:
Not a lot of information out there so I figured I'd post here.

If like to add an inverter for my 5er, mainly to limit inconvenient trips out to get the generators running for small things. One of the first things that comes to mind is the coffee pot. That's about the only AC power we use in the morning.

Anyways, I have this ambitious goal to have the inverter be capable of powering the whole camper, rather than just a few outlets or a sub panel or whatever. I'd also like to do a combo inverter/charger (IC) in place of my converter to streamline things, especially the transfer switch duties. I'm trying to confirm my thinking is correct.
.

there are number of us who use an inverter for coffee or the MW
early in the morning or late at night
and to power the entertainment, pc etc..

#1
despite what you said, making coffee is NOT a little thing
the smallest kuerig style is the hotel model 700w aka 60amps at 12v for what ever time it takes to make one cup

drip makers vary , mine is approx 1000w and takes 10 minutes to make 10cup pot
a full home model Kuireg is about 1500w aka 130amps at 12v
doing this on a regular basis you should have at least 4 batteries
6 would be better and daily recharging

a single 2000w inverter will handle these items
combo units are nice in one respect
but when something fails, you have a more expensive device that has to be repaired or replaced, seperate converter and inverter, means when one fails, you only loose one function and it costs less to replace
yes i like getting up in the morning and warming up a cup of coffee in the MW

I have five batteries for the house, they weigh 102# each
135ampHrs each, AGM ups/ server telco batteries

i admire your willingness to spend thousands of dollars for a cup of joe without starting the generator
but i think you can do this in a less costly more efficient, thought out manner

[corvettekent]

darsben1 wrote:
WOW ALL THAT FOR COFFEE
MAYBE THIS INSTEAD $30.00

X2

[CA_Traveler]

OP,

How about a step up from BF13s suggestion. 2000W inverter charger with built in transfer switch. Push a button, the inverter kicks in and you start the coffee or watch TV or whatever until the batteries need recharging. When AC is available from shore or gen the batteries are charged.

Plus if you like leave the inverter on and you don't even have to push that button.

[darsben1]

WOW ALL THAT FOR COFFEE
MAYBE THIS INSTEAD $30.00

[time2roll]

I would go with a stand alone 2000w and separate 50 amp transfer switch.
You already have a charging system yes?

[CA_Traveler]

OK, Here is a basic fact: RVs don't have 240V appliances, instead everything runs off of 120V or if you like 2 circuits of 50A each. So there is no reason for your split phase setup. Your 50A RV wiring supports 50A at 120V, ie Connect L1 and L2 together. So you could have one whole house inverter from say 2000W up to 6000W with your existing wiring.

As you move up the food chain you'll need very large batteries and most likely a 24V or 48V setup.