Wiring Disaster

[Danger_Zone]

I recently overloaded my system. Afterwards, the generator would power on but my outlets, roof AC, and microwave had stop working. I took my RV to a “specialist” and it was a big mistake. I quickly realized that this mechanic didn’t know what he was doing. Since the generator was running, but not providing power he said he had to change the 12v 120 White-Rogers solenoid, and a 40 amp circuit breaker. While I was waiting I heard him scream. He stumbled out the RV and said he shocked himself. I asked him if he disconnected both batteries and he said no, only the house battery. He then said I didn’t have to pay him and he didn’t feel comfortable touching the RV again because he was badly shocked. When I got back into the RV I noticed wires incorrectly hooked up and my generator would not start. From a picture that I had took months earlier, I was able to figure out where some of the wires went, but there are three wires I am unsure about. I have tried a few combinations but I have not had much luck getting the generator to start. The generator lights up but now it trips the breakers every time I try to start it. Everything else works in the house part. I have not been able to find any house battery wiring diagrams that explain what goes into each circuit breaker.

[DrewE]

MrWizard wrote:
I am a retired electrician , worked years in commercial residential and industrial, I don't recall any NEC that says a generator installed in a mobile vehicle on land, has to bond the neutral to ground

NEC 250.34(C) is where the requirement is stated, if I'm not mistaken, albeit in the usual opaque way the NEC states these things. Where there is both a shore power cord and the generator, the generator is part of a separately-derived system, and as such must have the neutral bonded to ground. Presumably the same requirements would apply to built-in inverters interconnected to the RV electrical system via a transfer switch.

[MrWizard]

I am a retired electrician , worked years in commercial residential and industrial, I don't recall any NEC that says a generator installed in a mobile vehicle on land, has to bond the neutral to ground,
Bonding the neutral to ground creates a 120v hot to frame/chassis hazard, while an unbonded neutral offers a lower 60v hazard from either wire to chassis/frame,
RVs are considered a remote sub panel, neutral bonding is only Done at the main service drop from the power utility or the installation of a fixed generator location, even secondary sub panels in the same building , do not bond neutral to ground at the sub panel,
The RV breaker panel is a sub panel, shore power, portable generator, installed generator

Here is a picture of my Breaker Panel


Click For Full-Size Image.

Ground Buss Bar on left
Neutral buss Bar on bottom aka white wires
Mounting screws holding Neutral buss are insulated
None of the ground wires on the ground buss bar connect to the neutral buss,
None of the white wires on the neutral buss bar connect to ground Buss or the box,this is a floating neutral
Yes generator ground is connected to ground, but generator neutral is Not Bonded to ground

Some may think that the very bottom ground wire on the left, is connected to the neutral buss, ...... look again closely that wire crosses over the neutral buss and goes into a Romex clamp at the back of the panel (not visible at this angle) and is connected to a circuit in the RV,

[Gonefshin]

CA Traveler wrote:

wa8yxm wrote:

CA Traveler wrote:
Actually a built in RV generator should have a bonded neutral and ground.

Should have? Say who. Mine did not. Neutral floated. I know cause it "Bit" me.. (Well slight tingle) annoying more than painful. but it very clearly was NOT bonded.

And now you know why they should be bonded. Without the bonding both the neutral and hot wires are hot and potentially dangerous. Normally the neutral is expected to very close voltage wise to the ground because of the upstream bonding like in the CG distribution.

Plus there is equipment that does not work or work correctly on a non bonded circuit. EMS is an example and of course the 3 light tester.

Portable gens are excepted in part because they typically are not necessarily designed for RVs. Some RVs will modify there portable gen for neutral ground bonding.

I had to make a bonding plug to make my Honda portable generator work on my motorhome

[Danger_Zone]

Problem resolved!!!!! I bypassed the mini circuit breaker inside the coach that sends power the generator starter and it started right up. I think the original problem was the starter, but when the initial Rv repair guy messed with wires he crossed something. The reason I think it’s running now is because when I bypassed those wires, it actually joins them together and resolved the problem of the wire being on the wrong side of the breaker. Thank you for all those who stayed on topic and actually tried to help.

[Danger_Zone]

Here is an update. I had a few electricians look at the generator but they were unable to determine the problem. When anyone hears that someone fooled around with the wiring they don’t want to bother with it, or they want you I charge a lot of money ($600) to just trouble shoot all the wiring with no guarantees. If I pay money I want certainty that the problem will at least be determined. I scheduled an appointment with Cummings, but they can’t look at it until April, so I had my mechanic change a few basic things until then. We changed the oil, air filter, all the mini circuit breakers, starter solenoid relay in the generator, 100 amp breaker, house battery, and nothing changed, it would just click when trying to start it.Then we changed the actual starter, and the unit now turns but it won’t start. It gets very close to sounding as if it will start but it doesn’t. I feel like we are making progress and I will keep you guys updated, if anything hopefully it can help someone else.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

A grounded neutral in a 240 system is functionally inconsequential. In a 120vac system only a sine wave exists. It depends if the stator is wound Delta or Wye.

[CA_Traveler]

Neutral ground bonding for a generator may occur in the ATS.

[CA_Traveler]

wa8yxm wrote:

CA Traveler wrote:
Actually a built in RV generator should have a bonded neutral and ground.

Should have? Say who. Mine did not. Neutral floated. I know cause it "Bit" me.. (Well slight tingle) annoying more than painful. but it very clearly was NOT bonded.

And now you know why they should be bonded. Without the bonding both the neutral and hot wires are hot and potentially dangerous. Normally the neutral is expected to very close voltage wise to the ground because of the upstream bonding like in the CG distribution.

Plus there is equipment that does not work or work correctly on a non bonded circuit. EMS is an example and of course the 3 light tester.

Portable gens are excepted in part because they typically are not necessarily designed for RVs. Some RVs will modify there portable gen for neutral ground bonding.

[DrewE]

wa8yxm wrote:

CA Traveler wrote:
Actually a built in RV generator should have a bonded neutral and ground.

Should have? Say who. Mine did not. Neutral floated. I know cause it "Bit" me.. (Well slight tingle) annoying more than painful. but it very clearly was NOT bonded.

Says the national electric code, in this case. If your permanently installed generator did not have neutral and ground bonded, it was improperly installed or the bond has broken and needed repair.

[Danger_Zone]

I want to thank everyone for responding. I have since spoken with a few electricians, and tomorrow I will meet with one in a nearby state. I will keep everyone posted on the outcome. The RV specialist that I used previously was the only shop in town, and although they are licensed and bonded, I have discovered numerous low ratings under a previous company’s name. After speaking with the original technician again, he said that he shocked himself when a wire from 12v 100amp DC Power Solenoid touched the heater vent. He said he was aware that it had power but he thought he moved it far enough away. I was able to connect all the wires back the way they were before he moved them. With the exception of the microwave, outlets, and air condition, I still have power going to everything inside the house, but my generator won’t start. It just lights up when priming it, and makes a quick buzzing noise while attempting to start it before it trips the breaker inside the RV.

[wa8yxm]

CA Traveler wrote:
Actually a built in RV generator should have a bonded neutral and ground.

Should have? Say who. Mine did not. Neutral floated. I know cause it "Bit" me.. (Well slight tingle) annoying more than painful. but it very clearly was NOT bonded.

So what happens when they do not bond?

The hot/ground/neutral divide the voltage so 120 volts Black to White but 60 volts either of those to Green/Bare

Why is is not all that dangerous.. Well the capacitive divider can not pass enough current to kill you or so they say it can however cause you to move in such a manner you wind up dead.

Or otherwise injure yourself
If you know the joke that involves a new playful kitten
A man takign a shower and a wife who does not know how to
Press the button on the garbage disposer.

WELL then you understand the dangers of sudden movement (HE KIO-ed himself)

[CA_Traveler]

Actually a built in RV generator should have a bonded neutral and ground.

[HTElectrical]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
A generator is a generator.
Anyone who rents anything from 10,000 watts to 1 megawatt gas knowledgable repair people. I would need 20,000 words to erect an analysis troubleshooter which is just too lengthy.
It may be something as simple as a grounded neutral.

Grounded Neutral ??? Correct term is Grounded conductor or Neutral, and why is that a problem?

[MEXICOWANDERER]

A generator is a generator.
Anyone who rents anything from 10,000 watts to 1 megawatt gas knowledgable repair people. I would need 20,000 words to erect an analysis troubleshooter which is just too lengthy.
It may be something as simple as a grounded neutral.