Actual federal weight law rules, some questions and answers

[jmramiller]

I have per the request of a few members, stickied this post. Please note, this is not a place to argue whether a law makes sense or not, just what the laws are. If you have a question about wt laws, that appears to be NOT answered in some way shape or form, please ask, and hopefully some of the ACTUAL weights and measures LEO's will answer, or those with some actual knowledge.

In the mean time, I do thank the OP for starting this thread, altho I have taken the liberty to change the title to one I think and hope will be a bit more informative in name.

marty
TV moderator

Some on this forum suggests that RAWR per the door sticker is legally binding by federal law. Specifically by para f of FMCSA:

(f) Except as provided herein, States may not enforce on the Interstate System vehicle weight limits of less than 20,000 pounds on a single axle, 34,000 pounds on a tandem axle, or the weights derived from the Bridge Formula, up to a maximum of 80,000 pounds, including all enforcement tolerances. States may not limit tire loads to less than 500 pounds per inch of tire or tread width, except that such limits may not be applied to tires on the steering axle. States may not limit steering axle weights to less than 20,000 pounds or the axle rating established by the manufacturer, whichever is lower.

The argument is that the last half of the last sentence "the axle rating established by the manufacturer, whichever is lower." is referring to the door sticker RAWR.

It is my contention that this actually refers to the "steering axle" which according to my English classes is the subject of the sentence. My contention is to find a standard relating to the rear axle in para f you have to refer back to the first sentence:
"States may not enforce on the Interstate System vehicle weight limits of less than 20,000 pounds on a single axle"

I would like to hear from LEO's who might have a comment on this subject. I would also love to hear from anyone who can post a copy of a citation issued for exceeding door sticker weight ratings. A link to the violated code would be nice also.

My only agenda here is to find out what really is and what really is not. I have intentionally omitted the names of those who make these claims because I want this to be about the law not people's claims.

Thanks.

[JIMNLIN]

jmramiller wrote:
If I needed medical advise would I consult a doctor or the guy changing the bed pans? I have to agree with "Dr. Wadcutter" on this one.

JIMNLIN - do you really believe that every LEO officer on this forum with weight enforcement experience is wrong on this subject? I have yet to see a single LEO on this forum agree with you. In fact every response I have seen by one of these individuals has directly contradicted your claims. Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough.

Are there any LEO's out there who want to support JIMLIN's claims?

Guess you don't agree with what the "clickie above" on what 390.5 says regarding mising door tag GVWR, huh. Thats not surprising as the reg debunks the matteress tag theory and makes the tag a legal issue.

I wasn't interested in info from bed pan changers either so I contacted both my doctor leo (OKDOT field officer and a troop S offier from our new commercial weights enforcement division) who is the only leo I'm concerned with for door tag interpetations for the state of Oklahoma. If it disagrees with your opinion or a leo from other states opinion thats your/their problem. I also don't read as you do that every leo on the web agrees with your position on door tag issues. I've heard comments that because its a RV it doesnt pertain from a leo. Many leos aren't weight certified and know very little about weight regs and how their state enforces door tag issues.

10 ton had some good info/advise also on GVWR/GAWR door tag issues. He probably knows more about door tag GVWR/GAWR issues than anyone on a RV web. Going through different state scale houses for several years gives lots of interpetation experiences. His info/opinion are correct IMO.

[jmramiller]

If I needed medical advice would I consult a doctor or the guy changing the bed pans? I think I will listen to "Dr. Wadcutter" when it comes to the law and how it is applied to us (RVers).

JIMNLIN - do you really believe that every LEO officer on this forum with weight enforcement experience is wrong on this subject? I have yet to see a single LEO on this forum agree with you. In fact every response I have seen by one of these individuals has directly contradicted your claims. Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough.

Are there any LEO's out there who want to support JIMLIN's claims?

[JIMNLIN]

"Actual federal weight law rules, some questions and answers"

is the topic at the top of the page in case your reading/comprehension level is aparantly at the third grade level. NO one has said FMCSA regs apply other than your blowing smoke trying to change the subject or cover your glaring lack of knowledge. What I said was as far as the door placard goes my states weight enforce officers use 390.3 scroll down to question #3 which says ; missing GVWR door tag. According to both officers Oklahome has a simular reg, that is used for commercial and non commercial enforcement, in our title 47 statutes that says its a misdeameanor to remove the door placard tags. Those are his interpetation not mine.

Your a typical dot officer we truckers run into on occassion and being required to carry the green book we have to on occassion show a self important dot officer what the FMCSA reg actually says. Your reading and comprehension ability is about like your description of a trucker says. I can blow smoke also or get just as mouthy as you get. Your choice.

As 10 ton says your problem is you say all states have your opinions on laws regarding door tag GVWR/GAWR issues and how other states use them. Your simply blowing smoke to cover your lack of knowledge on door tag numbers and how other/my state uses them for non commercial/commercial enforcement. The 390.3 and my states title 47 regs disproves the mattress theory.

Here is another NHTSA/DOT/FMCSA/FMVSS web for you to study for door placard issues that may be even a IL dot officer can comprehend.
49 cfr which are the same regs for commercial operators and non commercial operators.

flame on

[Wadcutter]

Once more, this forum is about towing trailers, 5ers, etc. FMCS regs don't apply. 390.3 is very clear about that.
If you had read 390.5, or if you had read it but clearly are incapable of understanding it, 390.5 is the definition paragraph of FMCS regs. There are no "question 3" or any other questions in 390.5.
Forget FMCS regs. They have nothing to do with this forum.
As far understanding the FMCS regs. I was one of 2 of the first in IL to be fulling MCS certified in 1982. I taught FMCS law. I was on several interstate committees concerning FMCS regs. I was recognized by the IL legislature and IL courts as an expert in that field. But none of that matters. Why? Because FMCS regs don't apply. It's that simple. It doesn't matter where you've hauled commercially or what you hauled. Forget FMCS regs when it comes to the RV forum.
You're proving the old saying "You can always tell a trucker but you can't tell them much." But you're a trucker so you know FMCS laws. If I had a dollar for every trucker I put out of service or wrote a citation to because they thought they knew the law or didn't know the law. But again, it doesn't matter on this forum because FMCS regs don't apply. Plain, simple, and very clear to most people who are capable of understanding clear English. The law is written at the 8th grade reading comprehension level. The average person reads at the 3rd grade level. You're proving that point.

[JIMNLIN]

LOL; the info I posted above comes from my state enforcement officers but it doesn't surprise me at your statements that all others don't understand or knowledge is a dangerous thing or they never read the regs or ....... . Just proves what I've thought all along that you simpley don't know FMCSA regs regarding under 10k and over 10k regs.

The topic is fed regs regarding door placard GAWR/GVWR on our LDT size trucks. As the OK state trooper said their used on the commercial side and non commercial side in the state of OK.
If anyone doesn't understand how to read the 390.5 reg then they need to go back to dot training school for a refresher course on what FMCSA says regarding combined towing regs for over 10k vehicles.

390.5 interpetations ( missing door tag)
Question 3: If a vehicle’s GVWR plate and/or VIN number are missing but its actual gross weight is 10,001 pounds or more, may an enforcement officer use the latter instead of GVWR to determine the applicability of the FMCSRs?

Guidance: Yes. The only apparent reason to remove the manufacturer’s GVWR plate or VIN number is to make it impossible for roadside enforcement officers to determine the applicability of the FMCSRs, which have a GVWR threshold of 10,001 pounds. In order to frustrate willful evasion of safety regulations, an officer may therefore presume that a vehicle which does not have a manufacturer’s GVWR plate and/or does not have a VIN number has a GVWR of 10,001 pounds or more if: (1) It has a size and configuration normally associated with vehicles that have a GVWR of 10,001 pounds or more; and (2) It has an actual gross weight of 10,001 pounds or more.

A motor carrier or driver may rebut the presumption by providing the enforcement officer the GVWR plate, the VIN number or other information of comparable reliability which demonstrates, or allows the officer to determine, that the GVWR of the vehicle is below the jurisdictional weight threshold." end of quote

Missing door placard problems comes up quite often. They go straight to the impound lane till a certified vehicle alterer can come on site and replace the placard or in the case of 390.5 reg above satify the enforcement officer.

That answers any question of the validity of the door placard according to both troopers I talked with. Guess they have a complete lack of understanding, huh. The OK dot trooper says OK state has a simular title 47 reg thats its a misdeameanor for knowingly/willfully removing/defacing the tag.


As 10 ton I also have towed commercially but not nationwide as he has. What he says is correct. A trucker as 10 ton that goes through the many different state scale houses or a roaside stop checks gains experience in how each state enforces a the door placard numbers on a over 10k truck. I know how my state interpets the door placard info regarding GAWR/GVWR as 390.5 or 567.4 that gives validity to its legal status.

I'll stick with what I'm told by OK DOT field officers and OK state troopers regarding how the door placard is used and enforced on the commercial side and non commercial side. I'm satified with their interpetations.

[Wadcutter]

FMCS regs do not apply. Anyone who keeps quoting them just shows they haven't read the regs or if they have don't understand what they're reading. It's a case of just a bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.
They should read the very first section of the FMCS regs to find out who those regs apply to. Anyone who says "commercial enforcement vs non commercial side" either didn't understand what they were being told or the person who said it never read FMCS regs.
They should have read Willcamp4's post 07/17/08 which gave the applicability paragraph for FMCS regs. If a person doesn't meet those reguirements then the regs don't apply. Since some people apparently missed the critical part of the applicability paragraph I'll bold it:

"§390.3 General applicability.
(a) The rules in Subchapter B of this chapter are applicable to all employers, employees, and commercial motor vehicles, which transport property or passengers in interstate commerce."

390.5 does not interpret anything. Read 390.5. It's the definition section. It defines for the chapter such words as "accident", "bus", "farmer", all the way to defining what "United States" means. There are no "Question 3" or any other "questions" in 390.5. Just more proof that someone hasn't read the FMCS regs nor knows what they're talking about.

390.3 is very clear. FMCS regs do not apply. Why someone keeps bringing them up only shows their complete lack of understanding what they're talking about.

[JIMNLIN]

10Ton wrote:

(snip)
One could register for a huge weight rating and be illegal on axle, or other limits,
(snip)
Some states give little attention to RV's and others are a little more finicky, and have rules they simply have chosen to pay more attention to.
(snip)

good points by Ken who most likely knows more about the whole GVWR/GAWR/tire cap door tag/bridge formula enforcement issues ,in different states, pertaining to commercial issues for over 10k trucks than the whole of any RV forum. Like many truckers he runs coast to coast and border to border and has to stay compliant in each state he operates in or travels through.

Had a face to face talk with a OHP officer from our new "S" troop who is OKs new commercial vehicle enforcement division and knows how OK enforces door tag info for commercial and non commercial operators using under 10k and over 10k trucks with combined tow. Some posters have pointed out if the door tag is missing it doesn't mean anything anyway or its like a matteres tag/etc. He gave me a several fed and OK statute numbers. One is FMCSA part 390.5 interpetation side which says ;

Question 3: If a vehicle’s GVWR plate and/or VIN number are missing but its actual gross weight is 10,001 pounds or more, may an enforcement officer use the latter instead of GVWR to determine the applicability of the FMCSRs?

Guidance: Yes. The only apparent reason to remove the manufacturer’s GVWR plate or VIN number is to make it impossible for roadside enforcement officers to determine the applicability of the FMCSRs, which have a GVWR threshold of 10,001 pounds. In order to frustrate willful evasion of safety regulations, an officer may therefore presume that a vehicle which does not have a manufacturer’s GVWR plate and/or does not have a VIN number has a GVWR of 10,001 pounds or more if: (1) It has a size and configuration normally associated with vehicles that have a GVWR of 10,001 pounds or more; and (2) It has an actual gross weight of 10,001 pounds or more.

A motor carrier or driver may rebut the presumption by providing the enforcement officer the GVWR plate, the VIN number or other information of comparable reliability which demonstrates, or allows the officer to determine, that the GVWR of the vehicle is below the jurisdictional weight threshold." end of quote

Now whats important is to understand how FMCR's use GVWR. For a combined tow ( truck and trailer) the only place its used is in the purchase of a higher combined plate/tag/sticker or what ever your state calls it, just as 10 ton says. GVWR is not how much weight the truck can carry. Thats the function of door tag GAWR's/tire caps. Simply put OK allow the operator to buy more GVWR (up to 15000 max) to be able to pull more. Thats the gist he gave me and I'm satified with it.

10 ton and a few others comments on the different state enforcement of GVWR/GAWRs which are the point of the topic are correct. Some continue to believe how their state (or their theory) interpets and enforces door tag info is how all states interpent. Experienced truckers such as 10 ton probably has learned the hard way the fallacy of that myth.

I asked the lieutenant if OK have new regs regarding door tag GAWR for commercial enforcement vs non commercial side. His comment was they are one and same regarding a LDT and a combined tow using any type of trailer.

I'm satisified with using my state officers weights interpetation and enforcement of door tag GAWRs and what GVWR does and doesn't do. GVWR isn't even on our trucks title unless it has been uprated per OK tax commision regs. I'm certainly not saying thats how all state enforce weight regs. I'll leave that up to you guys to find out.

[RVCampers]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply.

[Wadcutter]

RVCampers wrote:

1. Can you explain IL "B" plates B-Truck (gross weight 8,000 lbs. or less) and how much you can haul with them? .

Total weight would be 8000 lbs. That includes vehicle, occupants, fuel, and load weight. As you're driving down the road loaded with whatever it is you have in the truck and you pull on the scales then your total weight cannot exceed 8000 lbs as that's all you've registered to haul. Everything in and on the truck counts toward the total weight. Another example, if you pull on the scales and you weigh 8020 lbs then your dog has to get out and walk or you need to upgrade to a D plates since the dog put you over your allotted weight for a B plate.

RVCampers wrote:

2. Assuming that the truck weighs more than 8001 lbs (D plates or more), then the lic. "tax" is based on how much weight pay for (regardless of the door plate?)

If you put D plates on your truck then the total weight of the truck and load cannot exceed 12,000 lbs.

RVCampers wrote:

So, if you are below 8,000 lbs and have "B" plates how much can you legally haul?

Up to 8000 lbs total (gross) weight. How much you can put in your truck will depend on what your truck weighs empty. If your truck's empty weight is 6000 lbs then your total load, including occupants, fuel, etc cannot weight more than 2000 lbs so that you don't exceed a total weight of 8000 lbs.
If you have D plates on the same truck that weighs 6000 lbs empty then you can haul 6000 lbs of cargo, occupants, fuel, etc.

If you are looking at pulling a trailer then you add the registered weight of the truck and the registered weight of the trailer to get your total registered weight. For example, you have a B plate on a truck that weighs 6000 lbs. The hitch weight on your 5er is 3000 lbs. So if you weigh just your 2 axles on your truck your weight would show 9000 lbs which is 1000 lbs over your truck registered weight. But you're still legal. You alsoadd your registered weight of your 5er to the registered weight of your truck.
Let's say your registered weight of your 5er is 16,000 lbs. When you're connected your total legal registered weight is now 24,000 lbs (8000 for your B plate truck + 16,000 for your registered 5er = 24,000 total registered weight). When you are connected to your 5er you are only concerned about your total registered weights, not the individual registered weights.

If you really don't need D plates then you really don't want to get D plates. Once you register your truck with D plates or any plate in excess of 8000 lbs then the requirement kicks in where you have to get that truck inspected per 13-101.

[RVCampers]

Wadcutter,

1. Can you explain IL "B" plates B-Truck (gross weight 8,000 lbs. or less) and how much you can haul with them? - What I can find is that "B" plates are based on the weight of the vehicle, not how much they carry, as long as they initially weigh less than 8,000lbs (See below & this link: B-Plate under 8,000 lbs

2. Assuming that the truck weighs more than 8001 lbs (D plates or more), then the lic. "tax" is based on how much weight pay for (regardless of the door plate?)

So, if you are below 8,000 lbs and have "B" plates how much can you legally haul?

You said previously:

It depends on what your registered weight is. You can register you vehicle for whatever weight you want to haul. However, if your truck's empty weight is 7500 lbs then of course it wouldn't do you any good to register it for 6000 lbs as empty you'd already be 1500 lbs over your registered weight. If you registered that same truck for 8000 lbs then you could carry an additional 500 lbs on the registered plates. If you want to haul more than the 500 lbs then you need to pay more tax, ie registration, to haul whatever load you want to haul.

From IL Sec of State Newsletter:

Registered weight
requirements for second
division vehicles
The Illinois Vehicle Code (IVC), Chapter 3, contains
registration requirements for all vehicles operated
on Illinois roadways. Articles IV and VIII of
Chapter 3 specifically address registration
requirements for second division vehicles or
trucks.

All references to the registered weight of a vehicle
are referred to as “gross weight.” Gross weight is
defined as “the weight of the vehicle whether
operated singly or in combination without load
plus the weight of the load thereon” (625 ILCS
5/1-125). The only way this weight can be
determined is to actually weigh the vehicle.
{RVCAMPER: This would seem to support that if you weigh less than 8,000 lbs you qualifiy for "B" plates, my question then is how much can you hual?}

The Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of a
vehicle is the maximum weight of the vehicle and
load that can be safely transported by that
vehicle. This rating is assigned by the
manufacturer.

From IL Sec of State Newsletter:
No references are made anywhere
in Chapter 3 of the IVC to the registered weight
and the GVWR. Section 5/3-401(d), subparagraphs
(1) and (3) of the IVC both clearly
state that no person shall be considered in
violation of the registration provisions of the Code
unless the total gross weight of the vehicle
exceeds the total licensed weight of the vehicle.

Note: Bolding is only added for emphasis. It IS contained in the contents of the newsletter article.

[Ace_]

10Ton wrote:
...
4. Be aware that you may need a written statement from your insurance company as to what reasons reguarding weight that they may deny covering an accident, and maybe more importantly, in what circumstances of weight overages will they guarantee to cover.

Ken

That's not how insurance, or insurance companies work. Read your declarations page and policy booklet.

[SolidAxleDurang]

jmramiller wrote:
So every experienced LEO that has responded says that none of this applies to RVers. Everyone who still spouts this junk about GVWR and GAWR being legally binding and junk about RVers being hauled off to jail and being sued for being "overweight" should listen to the real experts....

Now you're applying too much logic to it. If you continue to do so, you'll be hauled off and forced to camp in a Walmart parking lot. Slides and awning out, of course. 🙂

[jmramiller]

So every experienced LEO that has responded says that none of this applies to RVers. Everyone who still spouts this junk about GVWR and GAWR being legally binding and junk about RVers being hauled off to jail and being sued for being "overweight" should listen to the real experts.

As I see it about the only thing I need to worry about is my registered weight...not that I ever expect I will be weighed.

[Willcamp4]

Being a retired LEO I have only one thing to say about this. The application of the standards listed in the original question deals only with the law as it applies to commercial vehicles. It does not apply ot those of us who drive our RVs on either local or interstate highways. Section 390 of the FMCSA deals with applicability and it states:

§390.3 General applicability.


(a) The rules in Subchapter B of this chapter are applicable to all employers, employees, and commercial motor vehicles, which transport property or passengers in interstate commerce.


It does not apply to us, but rather to the large commercial haulers. Of course that doesn't preclude some smart attorney trying to make it so. I have not read the entire thread to see where this wound up, but the law should be applied as intended.

[SOCADESERTRAT]

I am going to post this in the "Towing Forum"