Bio Diesel VS Diesel

[diazr2]

Just finished a 3500 mile trip across some of the most beautiful and rugged roads in the lower 48. Colorado Utah Arizona Idaho California and Oregon. Spent a month and a half on the road and came away with some very interesting data. I have read here about Bio fuels and how they don't have the bang for your buck as does just normal fuels. Well I no longer need to think about it. I did my own study and found that 20% bio Diesel has much less bang for your buck 10%bio Diesel had about the same as 20 and 5% is just as good as 10. Over some of the most grueling roads in the country I got 12.8 miles to the gallon with Diesel. Using Bio Diesel and some what less grueling roads that changed to 9.3. Wow was all I could say. The Diesel with no additives was normally cheaper as well. I have a 2001 7.3 Ford which has no limitations on how much % of Bio fuels I use. Why I do believe I could use kerosene in it and it wouldn't care one bit.I pull a 8000lb fifth wheel. I must admit the Bio fuels have been weighed and measured and have been found wanting, in power and millage. So now I know.

[valhalla360]

LarryJM wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:
As someone else said, the math doesn't work. Something else was going on. You are showing upwards of a 30% loss in efficency with only 20% biodiesel.

I agree and furthermore if the OP is getting 12.8 towing then he has the one in a million 7.3L out there since to break 11 to 11.5 is an exception rather than normal for a 7.3L towing. A real issue with the 7.3L platforms is getting a good fill up because of the way the tanks are vented. From first shut off I can get almost 4.5 gal more in my tank before it is totally full and all the air and foam is out.

Larry

Our old 7.3 averaged 12.6mpg pulling the trailer in the signature, so 12.8 isn't unbelievable.

20% biodiesel resulting in more than a 30% reduction in MPG...that's unbelieveable.

[diazr2]

Airstreamer67 wrote:

LarryJM wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:
As someone else said, the math doesn't work. Something else was going on. You are showing upwards of a 30% loss in efficency with only 20% biodiesel.

I agree and furthermore if the OP is getting 12.8 towing then he has the one in a million 7.3L out there since to break 11 to 11.5 is an exception rather than normal for a 7.3L towing. A real issue with the 7.3L platforms is getting a good fill up because of the way the tanks are vented. From first shut off I can get almost 4.5 gal more in my tank before it is totally full and all the air and foam is out.

Larry

My 1996 7.3L F250 with an automatic tranny and 3.55 differential easily beats that. I regularly tow my travel trailer at 60 mph and record a consistent 14 mpg average, and it has done so since I bought it 19 years ago. Without a tow, I get 23 at 60 mph and 21 at 70. Perhaps the vans don't do as well.

Wow Larry Looks like me and Mike are the only guys on the planet getting over 12 with a 7.3.:B If I was one in a million that would make Mike two in a million I wonder how many of those 7.3 were sold? Maybe it makes us two in two million.. Hell I am buying a lottery ticket tomorrow. But you are correct about the very hard to fill fuel tank. That's why I put in an auxiliary fuel tank that holds 35 gallons and rarely use the main tank at all.

[Airstreamer67]

LarryJM wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:
As someone else said, the math doesn't work. Something else was going on. You are showing upwards of a 30% loss in efficency with only 20% biodiesel.

I agree and furthermore if the OP is getting 12.8 towing then he has the one in a million 7.3L out there since to break 11 to 11.5 is an exception rather than normal for a 7.3L towing. A real issue with the 7.3L platforms is getting a good fill up because of the way the tanks are vented. From first shut off I can get almost 4.5 gal more in my tank before it is totally full and all the air and foam is out.

Larry

My 1996 7.3L F250 with an automatic tranny and 3.55 differential easily beats that. I regularly tow my travel trailer at 60 mph and record a consistent 14 mpg average, and it has done so since I bought it 19 years ago. Without a tow, I get 23 at 60 mph and 21 at 70. Perhaps the vans don't do as well.

[45Ricochet]

LarryJM wrote:

starlord wrote:
Bio cost me $4500.00. I make this statement due to having a 2005 Ford 6.0 motor in a E350. Before the naysayers chime in and say "A 6.0, there's all your problems right there", let me say that the engine has been bullet proofed to the extent it can be. The problem supposedly stems from having used bio fuel at some point. According to Ford, bio caused my fuel tank to delaminate, which also took out my fuel pump and a couple injectors. According to Ford, I should not run ANY bio of any concentration. This does present a big problem when spending any time at all in Illinois, since that seems to be all I can find there. If I have to run bio if I'm in Illinois, I put only the minimum amount I need to get out of that state and back to one that has real diesel fuel. Now, the funny part of this story (funny as in strange) is that these problems arose the day after having service performed at a Ford dealer, I thought it weird that no flakes of delamination were found when the fuel filters were changed, but maybe that's just me.

IMO Biodiesel had absolutely nothing to do with your tank delam problem which is a known issue with Vans around yours and mine vintage. What is true is that biodiesel is a great fuel system cleaner and can in some cases cause issue with filters, etc. Furthermore any tank delam and fuel contamination issues would have nothing to do with damaging your injectors. Someone fed you a bunch of the smelly stuff which you evidently took hook, line, and sinker so to speak.

Larry

X2
LMAO "according to Ford"

[LarryJM]

starlord wrote:
Bio cost me $4500.00. I make this statement due to having a 2005 Ford 6.0 motor in a E350. Before the naysayers chime in and say "A 6.0, there's all your problems right there", let me say that the engine has been bullet proofed to the extent it can be. The problem supposedly stems from having used bio fuel at some point. According to Ford, bio caused my fuel tank to delaminate, which also took out my fuel pump and a couple injectors. According to Ford, I should not run ANY bio of any concentration. This does present a big problem when spending any time at all in Illinois, since that seems to be all I can find there. If I have to run bio if I'm in Illinois, I put only the minimum amount I need to get out of that state and back to one that has real diesel fuel. Now, the funny part of this story (funny as in strange) is that these problems arose the day after having service performed at a Ford dealer, I thought it weird that no flakes of delamination were found when the fuel filters were changed, but maybe that's just me.

IMO Biodiesel had absolutely nothing to do with your tank delam problem which is a known issue with Vans around yours and mine vintage. What is true is that biodiesel is a great fuel system cleaner and can in some cases cause issue with filters, etc. Furthermore any tank delam and fuel contamination issues would have nothing to do with damaging your injectors. Someone fed you a bunch of the smelly stuff which you evidently took hook, line, and sinker so to speak.

Larry

[LarryJM]

valhalla360 wrote:
As someone else said, the math doesn't work. Something else was going on. You are showing upwards of a 30% loss in efficency with only 20% biodiesel.

I agree and furthermore if the OP is getting 12.8 towing then he has the one in a million 7.3L out there since to break 11 to 11.5 is an exception rather than normal for a 7.3L towing. A real issue with the 7.3L platforms is getting a good fill up because of the way the tanks are vented. From first shut off I can get almost 4.5 gal more in my tank before it is totally full and all the air and foam is out.

Larry

[Turtle_n_Peeps]

starlord wrote:
Bio cost me $4500.00. I make this statement due to having a 2005 Ford 6.0 motor in a E350. Before the naysayers chime in and say "A 6.0, there's all your problems right there", let me say that the engine has been bullet proofed to the extent it can be. The problem supposedly stems from having used bio fuel at some point. According to Ford, bio caused my fuel tank to delaminate, which also took out my fuel pump and a couple injectors. According to Ford, I should not run ANY bio of any concentration. This does present a big problem when spending any time at all in Illinois, since that seems to be all I can find there. If I have to run bio if I'm in Illinois, I put only the minimum amount I need to get out of that state and back to one that has real diesel fuel. Now, the funny part of this story (funny as in strange) is that these problems arose the day after having service performed at a Ford dealer, I thought it weird that no flakes of delamination were found when the fuel filters were changed, but maybe that's just me.

I hope you asked Ford how their bogus tank shrapnel got past "their" filter setup. :B

[Turtle_n_Peeps]

45Ricochet wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:
There is only about a 2% difference in BTU's between #2 diesel and 20% bio. That's about 1 1/3 of a mile/ gallon difference.

Your loss in mileage had to do with other things than Bio.

X2
Where has Navydude been anyway:B
Not sure about your engine but a pre 2006ish engine enjoys the lube from Bio fuel, in summer anyway.

Hey, I remember that guy!

No snakes for me, I have a CP3 pump. :W

[N-Trouble]

coolbreeze01 wrote:

GoPackGo wrote:
My 2013 F350 seems to run quieter on Biodoesel too. Don't know why.

Me either ..................

Biodiesel has superior lubrication properties compared to ULSD. Will result in quieter injectors.

[starlord]

Bio cost me $4500.00. I make this statement due to having a 2005 Ford 6.0 motor in a E350. Before the naysayers chime in and say "A 6.0, there's all your problems right there", let me say that the engine has been bullet proofed to the extent it can be. The problem supposedly stems from having used bio fuel at some point. According to Ford, bio caused my fuel tank to delaminate, which also took out my fuel pump and a couple injectors. According to Ford, I should not run ANY bio of any concentration. This does present a big problem when spending any time at all in Illinois, since that seems to be all I can find there. If I have to run bio if I'm in Illinois, I put only the minimum amount I need to get out of that state and back to one that has real diesel fuel. Now, the funny part of this story (funny as in strange) is that these problems arose the day after having service performed at a Ford dealer, I thought it weird that no flakes of delamination were found when the fuel filters were changed, but maybe that's just me.

[45Ricochet]

Turtle n Peeps wrote:
There is only about a 2% difference in BTU's between #2 diesel and 20% bio. That's about 1 1/3 of a mile/ gallon difference.

Your loss in mileage had to do with other things than Bio.

X2
Where has Navydude been anyway:B
Not sure about your engine but a pre 2006ish engine enjoys the lube from Bio fuel, in summer anyway.

[GoPackGo]

My truck is rated for up to 20% biodiesel, which is the current maximum allowed, I believe. I've heard talk that the max may be raised to 30%. And if that happens, what are we expected to do, especially those with older trucks rated for B5 ?

This is just like when ethanol started getting added to gasoline. Folks with older cars could have problems (alcohol is also a great solvent and cam harm nonresistant seals and gaskets). It affected boat tanks and I always had problems using it in small engines such as lawn mowers, even though I treated the fuel.

[jus2shy]

Charlie D. wrote:
Why do the manufacturers limit the amount of biodoesel for their engines?

Biodiesel is actually a pretty darn good solvent/cleaner for the fuel system. However, this property also means it doesn't play well with certain seals and gaskets when used above a certain concentration. So engineers figure that 20% blend is benign. Much above that and you start eating into the seals of the motor.

[Charlie_D_]

Why do the manufacturers limit the amount of biodoesel for their engines?

[Turtle_n_Peeps]

GoPackGo wrote:
My 2013 F350 seems to run quieter on Biodoesel too. Don't know why.

It has to do with the burn rate of the fuel. And also cetane rating. Quit does not necessarily mean better or better for the engine.