Buyer's remorse??

[Herimpression]

Hi. I'm totally new to this site and RVING. Hubby is in the Navy and got orders to Virginia...we decided to take advantage of living on the other side of the country by traveling to all the neat places we've heard about. So buying a TT seemed like a no-brainer. We looked at everything from Class C to fifth wheel to ultralights. We decided to get a light TT so we didn't have to upgrade our vehicle. We have a 1500 suburban with a tow package that can pull 8100 pounds.

So after a year of looking we were in between the Keystone Bullet Premier 31BHPR or 34BHPR The bunk house and outdoor kitchen were requirements and both have them. So after a lot of thinking we picked the 34BHPR because it has more interior storage and we liked the kitchen layout with the island. (This was a really hard choice because the other model has an exterior door to the bathroom and it's 500 pounds lighter because it only has 2 slides we thought that was great too.) So, we put our down payment down and we are waiting for them to do the do the walk through with us next week when we take it home.

Now I'm waking up at night worried we picked the wrong one because of the island. I hadn't seen the inside with the slides pulled in until the day we bought it. When the slides are in you can't get to anything because the slides pull right up to the island and you would have to climb over it to get to the bunk house. And getting to anything in the kitchen or storage under the table isn't possible with slides in. So you can only get to the bathroom and master bedroom with slides in.

Is this going to be a big deal??? We are in Virginia and are planning on going all the way up to Maine and down to the Florida Keys. I'm scared I'll hate that I can't get to our stuff on long hauls. We usually pack a road trip cooler in the car when we travel so hubby doesn't think we'll need anything from the trailer when we're on the road. But I don't know since we're new to this. Please give me advice. I can still change my mind and buy the 31BHPR that doesn't have an island...the dealer will be mad...but we haven't signed on the dotted line yet. Thanks in advance for your help!

[dodge_guy]

rexlion wrote:
I skipped from page 6 to page 14, so pardon me if I missed something important.

That said, I am glad you are re-thinking your purchase. First, the lack of accessibility with slides in. Think of it this way: if the slide malfunctioned, would you be ok camping in it anyway? If not, pass on that model.

Same could be said for any malfunction. try camping in a TT with a failed A/C. besides, how many failures of a slideout have ever happened?

Second, the length issue. The longer the tail, the more leverage it has to wag the dog. Know what I mean? With a long enough and stout enough lever, you can lift that trailer all by yourself... maybe only a half inch, but you could do it. Ok, 30' is a pretty long lever and 35' even more so. You definitely would need a hitch with built-in sway control, but even with that you might feel uncomfortable when towing in strong winds or when big trucks pass by.

A properly setup trailer should not sway. a good sway control hitch will prevent that. and anything over 25 feet should have a good sway control hitch. If you have sway, you have a setup problem!

Third, you'll have a much harder time finding a campsite than you would with a 25' TT.

Never had an issue finding a site with my 35 foot trailer.

Fourth, the struggle your Burb will have with a big trailer. In that regard length is not the issue. The issues are #1 frontal area, and #2 weight. An 8' wide by 127" high TT is pushing 45% more air and wind than a 7' wide by 100" high TT.

I agree with this, but the Burb with the proper gearing will do fine with a 10.5ft tall TT.

DW and I started with a 23' Rockwood TT with 1 slide. Since then I've bought smaller trailers only. All of them around 16'-17'. Easy to maneuver, easy to fit into smaller sites and in tight CGs. I like national forest CGs, and some of them just can't accomodate anything over a certain size. I also like smallish tow vehicles, BTW. I've towed over 140,000 miles with my '08 Toyota Highlander. That's just my preference. For your family and vehicle, a 25'-26' TT should be just about right.

And if I may suggest it, please consider a used TT. That Rockwood I mentioned off-gassed for about a year after we bought it, freshly built from the mfr. This is not un-typical. The formaldehyde and chemicals used in the typical TT interiors will sting the eyes, nose and throat of many people. Buying a 1-4 year old, used TT lets you escape that break-in period (much healthier) and miss out on the worst part of the inevitable value depreciation. If you decide a year later to sell the trailer, you won't lose much money on the pre-owned one but you will lose thousands on the new one.

Oh, and make sure you know how heavy your trailer's tongue is when it's loaded for camping. Don't guess or presume, you may be shocked! Especially if the fresh water tank is up front, like it was on my Rockwood. Water weighs 8.3 lbs per gallon, and the trailers you are looking at have huge tanks!


Fill the tanks at your destination and TW can be managed easily!

[rexlion]

I skipped from page 6 to page 14, so pardon me if I missed something important.

That said, I am glad you are re-thinking your purchase. First, the lack of accessibility with slides in. Think of it this way: if the slide malfunctioned, would you be ok camping in it anyway? If not, pass on that model.

Second, the length issue. The longer the tail, the more leverage it has to wag the dog. Know what I mean? With a long enough and stout enough lever, you can lift that trailer all by yourself... maybe only a half inch, but you could do it. Ok, 30' is a pretty long lever and 35' even more so. You definitely would need a hitch with built-in sway control, but even with that you might feel uncomfortable when towing in strong winds or when big trucks pass by.

Third, you'll have a much harder time finding a campsite than you would with a 25' TT.

Fourth, the struggle your Burb will have with a big trailer. In that regard length is not the issue. The issues are #1 frontal area, and #2 weight. An 8' wide by 127" high TT is pushing 45% more air and wind than a 7' wide by 100" high TT.

DW and I started with a 23' Rockwood TT with 1 slide. Since then I've bought smaller trailers only. All of them around 16'-17'. Easy to maneuver, easy to fit into smaller sites and in tight CGs. I like national forest CGs, and some of them just can't accomodate anything over a certain size. I also like smallish tow vehicles, BTW. I've towed over 140,000 miles with my '08 Toyota Highlander. That's just my preference. For your family and vehicle, a 25'-26' TT should be just about right.

And if I may suggest it, please consider a used TT. That Rockwood I mentioned off-gassed for about a year after we bought it, freshly built from the mfr. This is not un-typical. The formaldehyde and chemicals used in the typical TT interiors will sting the eyes, nose and throat of many people. Buying a 1-4 year old, used TT lets you escape that break-in period (much healthier) and miss out on the worst part of the inevitable value depreciation. If you decide a year later to sell the trailer, you won't lose much money on the pre-owned one but you will lose thousands on the new one.

Oh, and make sure you know how heavy your trailer's tongue is when it's loaded for camping. Don't guess or presume, you may be shocked! Especially if the fresh water tank is up front, like it was on my Rockwood. Water weighs 8.3 lbs per gallon, and the trailers you are looking at have huge tanks!

[IndyCamp]

We were in your exact shoes three years ago (1 1/2 year old and 1/2 ton truck) and here is my take:

-You are absolutely doing the right thing reading these boards and anything else you can read. Don't listen to the salespeople. You probably know more about towing at this point than they do.

-We did plenty of research ahead of time and I never bought into the "rent/buy used/buy your next trailer" stuff. It probably helped that I have camped since I was six years old (I'm 37 now) and we had a popup for many of those years.

-We bought a new rear living floorplan and towed it for two seasons with our 2013 1/2 ton Silverado. It is the trailer in my sig and weighs 7,500 pounds loaded and is about 32 feet from ball to bumper.

-We still have the same trailer, but did move up to a 2500 truck. It really came down to the payload. We went from 1,500 to 3,000 and can now load a rick of firewood and hitch up without thinking twice.

-We have had as many as two extra adults and three extra kids spend as many as three nights in our trailer, and it worked out. It's not ideal, but it works. Having just one kid, who is now four years old, it's rare that we have a lot of kids staying with us and we prefer the huge living area over the big rear bunk room.

-We can access our bathroom and front bedroom with our rear slides in and it is great. If you plan on taking long road trips, I don't think this can be discounted. Also consider the fact that many center kitchen floorplans have a slide that eats into your outdoor living/awning space.

-Best of luck to you all and safe travels!

[Tax_Man]

Herimpression - you are getting a lot of information from a lot of individuals. The information is good.

I went through the remorse part and the first camper was a 19ft 7000# Pilgrim towed with a 2004 1500 Silverado Ext Cab 5.3L. Traded it for 30ft 7820# Innsbruck bunk house with 1 slide. The 1500 was having trouble with 230 deg transmission temps. Bad idea. Upgraded to the 2005 Silverado 2500 4x4 Crew cab with 8.1L. This will tow 12000# off "bumper" with a weight distributing hitch or 14000# 5th wheel.

Trailer Life has towing guides that are very accurate. This is where I verified the towing capacity of my vehicles.

When I went looking for the new trailer, I knew what GVWR I wanted to stay under. All trailers have that number on a sticker (usually on the right side as you look front to back or in a cabinet).

Visit the TT manufacturer web site and find several before going to the dealer. If the web site only shows dry weight and carry weight, add them to get GVWR. Many of them have a bunk house trailer with slides for less than 7500#. I know, I've looked.

My truck does not even act like there is a trailer back there when towing. I just can't pass a gas station.

I just know a 1500/F150 (half ton) usually will not be good towing anything over 7000#

If you are going to get a new (or new to you) truck, I would like to recommend the following as I just finished looking for a new truck when I got the 2005 8.1L 2500HD Crew Cab 4x4.
1) Chevy 2009 or newer 2500HD 6.0L with 4.10 axle ratio.
2) Chevy 2004 or 2005 2500HD 8.1L with the Allison Transmission
3) Ford 2012 or newer F250 with the 6.2L gas motor.
4) Dodge 2013 or newer 2500 but check Trailer Life.
Each one should pull 9900# or more with a weight distributing hitch

Good luck in your search. This is just my two cents. Each one of us giving you information has their preferences.

[spoon059]

My new trailer is rated for 9500 lbs, and weights 7200. I will likely never get anywhere near 2300 lbs of cargo in my trailer... but I think its good to know the upper limit and ensure that your tow vehicle can handle it...

[mtofell1]

OP for a point of reference I just went through this with a new 5th wheel. It weighed 9040# leaving the factory. After loading it up with basic dry food goods, towels, pots/pans, blankets, basic camping gear like a lantern, bbq grill and just regular stuff it weighs 10,500# - that was with the tanks 90% empty. I was actually surprised I didn't put more stuff in it. I know with full tanks it will be more and will likely "creep" up over the years and I collect more stuff.

[toedtoes]

For me, I dry camp almost exclusively. It is important for me to include a full tank of fresh water in my calculations.

I've been looking at small lightweight trailers that meet my layout needs and can be towed by my Durango. I have found that in lightweight trailers, the CCC can be severely limited with a full fresh water tank.

So, it really depends on what you plan on doing with the RV that determines which data is important or not.

As an example, I saw one trailer I liked. It's dry weight was about 2500lbs. It's gvwr was about 3100lbs. But if I filled the fresh water tank, it left me with only about 360 lbs. I felt that was way too close to the edge to feel comfortable.

[SoundGuy]

2012Coleman wrote:
If you are simply calculating weights, the GVWR is a much better number to use than a guess of what the trailer will weigh once you've loaded it. Since the OP has stated he is going to get it weighed, it's really a moot point, now isn't it?

As already pointed out by others, using the trailer's GVWR as a guide in calculating just how much trailer a given vehicle can safely tow and remain within it's various limits is a bogus method simply because in many cases that GVWR is so far beyond what any reasonable person would load the trailer to. Fact is, these days it's not even necessary to weigh a trailer beforehand as it's actual weight as it left the factory is now required to be shown on a sticker affixed to the trailer. To that one would then mathematically account for anything the dealer may add before delivering the trailer to the customer - i.e. battery, propane in the tanks, or any additional options the customers may request. To that weight most travel trailer owners would want to also allow a couple hundred pounds to account for the weight of water in the water heater tank and some reserve capacity in the fresh water tank so the system can be pressurized, remain that way as long as the owner wants, and be used anywhere, at any time, camping or otherwise. That then leaves the weight of whatever the owner may add to the trailer in terms of his own personal cargo ... and that means everything. Working backwards it's therefore easy to say that if one takes the unloaded vehicle weight of the trailer as it left the factory and as listed on the required weight sticker and adds 1000 lbs to this weight that will at least put them roughly in the range of what this trailer may actually weigh fully loaded. Bottom line, of course it's wise to eventually weigh any trailer fully loaded and ready to camp but these days it's certainly not as necessary as it once was nor is it wise to use it's GVWR as a guide.

Once he comes back with that, statements like "should be doable" will be based more on facts.

If you're referring to my earlier "should be doable" comment it is based on facts as I've been towing for 10 yrs now with GMs ubquitous 5.3L power plant and am quite familiar with what it can and can't do ... and what it can't do, including under widely varying conditions of terrain and weather, is to tow 8000 lbs ... in fact, not even close, which is why I said if the OP sticks to a trailer that weighs no more than about 6000 lbs to perhaps 6500 lbs max fully loaded then towing it with their Sub "should be doable", even though we yet don't know the full specifics of their particular truck. Having towed tens of thousands of miles with the same vehicle platform as the OP does IMO grant me some degree of authority with which to comment on this subject. :S

[2012Coleman]

If you are simply calculating weights, the GVWR is a much better number to use than a guess of what the trailer will weigh once you've loaded it. Since the OP has stated he is going to get it weighed, it's really a moot point, now isn't it?

Once he comes back with that, statements like "should be doable" will be based more on facts.

[mtofell1]

dodge guy wrote:
I love how people throw around GVWR. unless a trailer has a very low CCC, I don`t see anyone loading a trailer to it`s GVWR.

X2

The whole idea of buying a TV to match GVWR of a trailer is one of the worst pieces of advice thrown around here daily. The GCWR "can" be a good guideline but isn't always accurate. My last trailer had a cargo capacity of 4600#. Using the "TV must match GVWR" idea I'd have needed a dually.

[Bumpyroad]

dodge guy wrote:
I love how people throw around GVWR. unless a trailer has a very low CCC, I don`t see anyone loading a trailer to it`s GVWR.

yep, that's why I find it amusing when folks have a 3,000 lb. unit, rated for 6,000 lbs. GVWR and feel it is too heavy to tow with their F150 rated to tow 5,500 lbs. I've seen this on Class Bs where you would have to fill every available cabinet, etc. with lead ingots to reach the GVWR.
bumpy

[APT]

We bought our TT when my youngest (of 3) was 1 yr old and towed with a crew cab pickup. When that pickup was ready to be replaced, we only considered 3-row SUVs. My wife insisted that since the bulk of our car travel time was towing, 3 rows was a lot more pleasant. She won and 4 years later we are still kind of sane. 3rd kid did change the dynamics of our family a lot. Logistically, our US society caters to a family unit of 4 from hotel rooms to dining restaurants.

I looked at rear king slide TTs like the Outback 250, but the privacy and access on the road turned me off. Now that we have the more capable 3/4 ton Suburban for something like your original Bullet 34, we have really made the current floorplan work well for us. Pack and play fits on the floor or jackknife sofa or dinette. We have slept 8 in a pinch. Your payload should be in the 1400 pound range, and my TT should tow well behind your Suburban. Stay in the 5000-5500 pound dry range.

[dodge_guy]

I love how people throw around GVWR. unless a trailer has a very low CCC, I don`t see anyone loading a trailer to it`s GVWR. if that was the case most would say I shouldn`t be towing my current trailer. but I don`t have 4k lbs of stuff to load into my trailer. and I doubt the OP will have much more than 1k lbs to add either. so again I would tow this trailer with the OP`s Burb! yes even with little ones. I did it years ago. I believe I was over my vans GVWR by 300 lbs but under the axle ratings and GCVWR. I don`t understand why so many love to try and scare the "cr.." out of a newbie?! or for that matter make it very difficult for them to find something that will work.

Here is what I towed with! nothing scary or dangerous at all!

[SoundGuy]

dodge guy wrote:
This trailer looks well suited to your Burb! Keystone passport 2670bh.

2012Coleman wrote:
The calculated tongue weight for this is 904 lbs.

5085 shipping weight + 1875 carrying capacity of 1875 gives you 6960. 6960 * 13% is 904.8. The brochure lists the hitch weight at 625! Where does that come from? I'm betting the sticker on the side tells a different story.

There's no mystery here. So-called brochure "hitch weight" merely reflects the tongue weight of a base model as it sits at the factory, no accessories, no options, no battery, no propane in the tanks, no water in the tanks, etc. Obviously the trailer's real world gross tongue weight will increase once the dealer receives the trailer and adds a battery and propane to the tanks. No trailer will have any sort of tongue weight shown on the trailer's weight sticker as it's a variable number that depends on many different factors. Once the new owner gets the trailer home and loads the trailer up ready for camping not only will the trailer's gross weight increase but so too will it's gross tongue weight, the object being to try to land that gross tongue weight somewhere in the 13% to 14% range of it's gross weight. In this particular case, with a factory dry weight of 5085 lbs, there's no reason the OP should need to load this trailer with so much "stuff" that it would weigh any more than 6500 lbs ... 13% of that is 850 lbs. That's a bit more than I'd expect the OP's Sub could handle and remain within it's real world payload capacity and the reason I suggested earlier they try to find a trailer that will top out under 6000 lbs fully loaded and ready to camp, with an average gross tongue weight of about 750 lbs, about the most the OP's Sub is likely to be able to handle while also carrying family and cargo.

[2012Coleman]

dodge guy wrote:
I did a quick search and came across keystones website. This trailer looks well suited to your Burb! Keystone passport 2670bh. Just to give an idea of what is available to you!

With the right gearing I would tow this with your Burb!

The calculated tongue weight for this is 904 lbs.

5085 shipping weight + 1875 carrying capacity of 1875 gives you 6960. 6960 * 13% is 904.8. The brochure lists the hitch weight at 625! Where does that come from? I'm betting the sticker on the side tells a different story.

I'm looking forward to the results of the OP's scale weight this weekend.