Chevrolet exits all ICE production by 2035

RoyJ wrote:
I've always wondered why trucks don't use series-hybrid like locomotives. Last I check, AC-AC locomotives from GE were hitting 90%+ efficiency.

Not only do we have multi-motor redundancy like you mentioned, but we can tune the IC engine for a single (at most 2) operating points. It'll be a lot more efficient, and the emissions system a lot more reliable.

If I really want to dream - why not have traction motors on the trailers in the future? This works for both series hybrid and full EV drive-train. As someone who's chain up on BC snow passes, I would've given anything for an AWD semi combo back in the day!

I still think using the electric as the transmission would work. Once you reach 40/50 mph a single clutch could connect the engine to power direct. Once connected, the electric could give boost or braking as needed to maintain speed.

Groover wrote:
At this point Tesla is targeting city and terminal to terminal driving (500miles).

What might make sense right now for longer runs is plug-in hybrids with lets say a Cummins 6.7L 300hp engine driving the first rear axle with an 80Kwh battery pack and electrically driven second second rear axle with twin 200hp motors. That might work out to about the same weight and volume while reaping many of the benefits of electric drive.

The electric trucks will be worth more up front than a diesel driven truck if they are as reliable and maintenance free as cars have been so far. Electric cars have demonstrated no oil changes, no brake changes, no emission issues, etc. The Tesla will have 4 independent drive motors(one for each rear wheel) so that if one or two fail you still won't need a tow truck. Judging from how much my neighbor works on his long haul diesel reduced maintenance should be worth quite a bit up front.

I've always wondered why trucks don't use series-hybrid like locomotives. Last I check, AC-AC locomotives from GE were hitting 90%+ efficiency.

Not only do we have multi-motor redundancy like you mentioned, but we can tune the IC engine for a single (at most 2) operating points. It'll be a lot more efficient, and the emissions system a lot more reliable.

If I really want to dream - why not have traction motors on the trailers in the future? This works for both series hybrid and full EV drive-train. As someone who's chain up on BC snow passes, I would've given anything for an AWD semi combo back in the day!

Groover, there’s one in development already. The Hyliion ERX, CNG diesel as a generator feeding the battery pack.

RoyJ wrote:

Groover wrote:
You have made some good observations and are hitting all around some of the answers to your questions without realizing it.

To begin with, a horse trailer doubles the fuel consumption of my 2016 F150. And that is with one that is relatively streamlined. A lot of trailers are not aerodynamic at all. Even those that are are not well matched with the tow vehicle in many cases. When my daughter replaced here bumper pull with a larger and heavier gooseneck trailer her fuel economy went up. I think that it because the gooseneck trailer is much closer to the cab and is better set up to stay in the slipstream of the truck. I can take that same bumper pull trailer and tow it behind my motorhome that is 12ft tall and 102inches wide and it has very little effect on fuel efficiency.

On that note, Tesla knows this well and is great with aerodynamics. Every picture that I have seen with a Tesla tractor pulling a trailer shows a combination that is well matched and equipped for low air drag. No toy haulers with external air conditioners, awnings, door handles, antennas and flat back end will be tolerated.

One of the largest air drags for ICE engines is cooling air. The Tesla semi just won't have that at all. What would have been cooling air will be very aerodynamically routed around the tractor. The power steering, AC compressor and air compressor will only run on demand instead of being driven all of the time. There will not be any fuel sucking exhaust filter regens. There won't be a massive cooling fan sucking 20hp when going up a hill. The oil pump will go away and the cooling pump will be much smaller. My neighbor tells me that 1/3 of his engine hours on his semi comes from idling while stopped. When a Tesla semi is stopped the only systems that will be running are some very efficient operator comfort items and, when needed, some LED lights.

Tesla is also going after rolling resistance by using super singles in place of duals, nearly cutting rolling resistance in half plus reducing air drag. Since the mechanical brakes will only be used very rarely Tesla might find a way a routing cooling air around them except when needed.

All very good points. To be clear, in no way am I not admitting the benefits of electrification, I just don't believe you can make an economically viable long-haul tractor with only 1,000 kWh on-board. As in, if I am an owner-operator, I would not buy that over a $150k Freightliner as of 2021, because the amount of loads I'd have to turn down, the number of routes I'd be restricted to, and the types of trailers I can pull is too limited to make a profit (already very thin).

I will nit-pick a few things: cooling air is not a significant form of drag. Ram's grille shutters save 0.5 mpg (or 2.5%). I've also tested this with full winter grille cover, fuel savings are not even measurable. A/C and air compressors do not run all the time on IC engines. A/C drag is near 0 due to clutch, but the air compressor has a slight draw (<0.25 hp) as only unloader valve is used.

Semi cooling fans actually draw up to 60 hp, so massive gain by the EV. Downside? In cold climates, we must burn battery power to heat the cab, and up here that can be 3kW+ for 24/7 during winter long haul. With I/C, heat is free during driving, and around 90% efficient on Webasto. Re-gen is a big benefit to EVs, but most efficient as weight goes up and hills get steep. On a 3% grade we have very little regen. Here in BC that's a plus, as most grades are >6%.

Again, not saying EVs will never work for long haul, just that as of 2021, I can't see how an owner operator can be profitable with a 1,000 kWh EV tractor. And that's not even taking purchasing cost into account, which will be MUCH higher than a $150k Freightliner. In another 10 yrs, with 2,000 kWh packs, it'll start to become viable for selected hauling operations.

At this point Tesla is targeting city and terminal to terminal driving (500miles).

What might make sense right now for longer runs is plug-in hybrids with lets say a Cummins 6.7L 300hp engine driving the first rear axle with an 80Kwh battery pack and electrically driven second second rear axle with twin 200hp motors. That might work out to about the same weight and volume while reaping many of the benefits of electric drive.

The electric trucks will be worth more up front than a diesel driven truck if they are as reliable and maintenance free as cars have been so far. Electric cars have demonstrated no oil changes, no brake changes, no emission issues, etc. The Tesla will have 4 independent drive motors(one for each rear wheel) so that if one or two fail you still won't need a tow truck. Judging from how much my neighbor works on his long haul diesel reduced maintenance should be worth quite a bit up front.

time2roll wrote:

Reisender wrote:
Is anybody actually developing a long haul yet?

For what? Google says the average semi truck does 45,000 miles per year. 500 miles range easily covers this.

If I could of made a living on 45,000 miles a year I would of stayed with 427 GMC. When shopping for trucks 100,000 was a low mileage truck.

The closest I have ever done to line-haul was short term for UPS in there pre-Christmas rush a couple of years. Sign in at terminal 2 hours before scheduled to leave. Pick up trailer, head to another terminal. Sometimes, to close terminal, swap trailers and head back. Others was 8-10 hrs to get there. Drop trailer, "You are scheduled to leave at **:**. (12 hrs later) In that time I would sleep, shower, eat a couple of meals, and feed my Cat. I can see no reason, if that is normal in the line-haul operation, I see no issue charging the truck

RoyJ wrote:

Reisender wrote:
Never thought of that. I always assumed it would be a DC fast charging affair at a depot. More along the lines of an hour or two with a 500 KW or more 800 volt system. Who knows. But your idea may work. A couple of 19.2 KW 240 AC umbilicals overnight. That would deliver around 500 Kw overnight. Tesla used to put 19.2 KW chargers in their model S’s. An 80 amp EVSE (supplying the 19.2 KW) would run about 1000 bucks each. Maybe suspended from above? They are pretty small.

Interesting.

Keeping the heat on overnight wouldn’t use more than about 8 or 10 KW.

For the trucking industry to accept overnight charging, they'd have to do away without team drivers. Fast shipping would need a hub and terminal, where trailers are swapped for a fresh tractor.

But there's no reason why a semi can't charge as fast as a Tesla car. The distribution grid is the only limit. Right now in BC at least, BC Hydro would not run a 138kV transmission line unless it's a major industrial customer (foundry, pulp paper, etc). If every Flying J is fed at that voltage, new substations would be needed.

Yah the electrical calculations are out of my league. Typical V3 Superchargers are 16 station affairs all at 250 KW. Some are bigger and some are smaller. Just had a second one open near us in west Kelowna but it’s a smaller 8 station 250 KW affair. There is another 8 station older V2 150 kw supercharger in downtown Kelowna. I think a lot of the BC Superchargers are 8 station affairs, or at least most that we have been to, although Vancouver seems to have a bunch of those 20 station Superchargers. Those things must suck some power.

Biggest Supercharger we have seen is Kettleman on I5. Something like 46 or something V3 stations. Huge. Lounge, Coffee with a barista etc. Maybe Tesla will set up that kind of thing.

They’ll figure it out.

Reisender wrote:
Never thought of that. I always assumed it would be a DC fast charging affair at a depot. More along the lines of an hour or two with a 500 KW or more 800 volt system. Who knows. But your idea may work. A couple of 19.2 KW 240 AC umbilicals overnight. That would deliver around 500 Kw overnight. Tesla used to put 19.2 KW chargers in their model S’s. An 80 amp EVSE (supplying the 19.2 KW) would run about 1000 bucks each. Maybe suspended from above? They are pretty small.

Interesting.

Keeping the heat on overnight wouldn’t use more than about 8 or 10 KW.

For the trucking industry to accept overnight charging, they'd have to do away without team drivers. Fast shipping would need a hub and terminal, where trailers are swapped for a fresh tractor.

But there's no reason why a semi can't charge as fast as a Tesla car. The distribution grid is the only limit. Right now in BC at least, BC Hydro would not run a 138kV transmission line unless it's a major industrial customer (foundry, pulp paper, etc). If every Flying J is fed at that voltage, new substations would be needed.

What if many of the trucks still had half charge at the end of the day?

lbrjet wrote:
How is a truck stop going to be configured for EV? All trucks back into the spaces today.

The easiest would be underground charger with the plug hidden u underneath a lid.

Utility companies would need some serious power feed. At say 1000kW per truck and 50 trucks, that's 50 megawatts. Minimum 138kV primary feed I'd say.

lbrjet wrote:

Reisender wrote:

lbrjet wrote:
How is a truck stop going to be configured for EV? All trucks back into the spaces today.

Why would it make a difference with electric...or hydrogen. Are you talking fueling or parking.

I assumed the fueling would be an over night affair. Especially in the winter to keep the heat on while sleeping.

Never thought of that. I always assumed it would be a DC fast charging affair at a depot. More along the lines of an hour or two with a 500 KW or more 800 volt system. Who knows. But your idea may work. A couple of 19.2 KW 240 AC umbilicals overnight. That would deliver around 500 Kw overnight. Tesla used to put 19.2 KW chargers in their model S’s. An 80 amp EVSE (supplying the 19.2 KW) would run about 1000 bucks each. Maybe suspended from above? They are pretty small.

Interesting.

Keeping the heat on overnight wouldn’t use more than about 8 or 10 KW.