Diesel vs gas......................

[blt2ski]

OK folks, there have been a few to many diesel vs gas threads that have shall we say gone to "Hell and a hand basket"! So if all of you would put in you BEST, no flaming reasons for going gas vs diesel, pro and con, I will either leave your thread, or copy and paste pertinant info to the 4 posts of pro and con of diesel or gas. This can include the GM 8.1 vs Dmax or Ford V-8/10 vs PSD etc too.

Be real and honest in you answers, not hear say, flaming etc PLEASE!

If posts are good ones, I will leave, if inflamatory or trolling in nature, they will be deleted! I will get this stick'd to the top for future parusing for those that need this type of info.

Added 6-23-04

We are getting closer to answers I am looking for etc.

Stuff like Ken's - T-Bone posts are good. There are a few others of you that have not posted, some with a 9 point question and answer type to figure out how you went with one or the other. If you are one of those, PLEASE repost in this thread. I may have to look up whom has done this and PM you, but if you think this is you, you now know what to do.

Also, for those of you with $ per gallon for either fuel right now, I would prefer to see a post with ...."in my area, diesel is typically .10 less than unleaded" then explain your numbers. As currently in the Seattle area, diesel and unleaded are any where from 2.05 -2.30 per gallon, with mid test .10 more and premium about .20 more, with equal high low splits. Two weeks ago those prices were upwards of .30 -.40 per gallon more. people were posting $ per gallon that were for me. "I wish" If someone is reading your post a year from now, they may want to know where your paying 1.65, when the price of fuel is over $3 per gallon. Let's keep prices out of it if possible.

Bert and tin tipi, got into a good discusion on the pros and cons of RPM's, drive train etc. I would prefer to NOT see the quote of the other in responding threads, maybe just write a quick wording of re tranny gearing, instead of the whole 40 words or so in that paragragh, so the repsonse is shorter if possible quicker and easier to read etc.

I have deleted some 15+/- posts, that were off topic etc. Please note, I am trying to keep this at the top, as the ONLY gas/diesel thread in this area. So if one is trying to decide, we do not have to go thru this BS any more. As such, I will be deleting ANY future posts close to resembling this type of topic. I may have to change "this" title to a better one, if one has a better sounding title, to be more positive, better claification, let me know here, or in a PM/e-mail, what ever you feel most comfortible with.

Again thank you for all of you that are keeping responses positive, etc.

Also we could use a few more positive reasons to go gas, as many can see I have both gas and diesel, both have a place! Both have positive reasons to buy that fuel, lets keep the threads etc to that purpose only!

Marty

[BertP]

ohioviper wrote:
The Iron block aluminum head works fairly well on lower compression engines , but not so well in the case of a high compression turbo Diesel.As the turbo spools up the presure increases and the higher the compression the more stress on the head gaskets to do their job.

The forces of compression are miniscule when compared to the forces of combustion. The fact that a diesel has higher compression than a gasser means nothing when it comes to comparing the stress the head gaskets of the two engines have to endure.

Bert

[bluenote]

ohioviper....

You keep making the same statements, even though your premise is incorrect and obviously very biased. Give it up while you still have some dignity.

[ohioviper]

The Iron block aluminum head works fairly well on lower compression engines , but not so well in the case of a high compression turbo Diesel.As the turbo spools up the presure increases and the higher the compression the more stress on the head gaskets to do their job. The aluminum head does not have the clamp load capability an iron head does.Tighten an aluminum head down to the same torqe spec as an iron head and you will find out why.

[Drew510]

What I find amusing about the DMax AL head naysayers is the fact that there are SOOOO many engines in operation today that are AL head and IRON block that this argument seems so silly.

<----Drives a 71 DATSUN with AL head and IRON block. No headgasket problems.

[Sport45]

Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.
Albert Einstein, (attributed)
US (German-born) physicist (1879 - 1955)

[glock35ipsc]

bluenote wrote:
Statistics and data can be used to support nearly any argument one can come up with.

92% of statistics are made up on the spot. :B

[BertP]

ohioviper wrote:
Yes it does. We have a term for it at my work. Engineers lay it out on paper in an imaginary world. And we prove them wrong with the real world.

Engineers are not always correct, but to write something off as nonsense beacuse it was stated by an engineer doesn't make sense. Just like your claim that if a CTD blows a head gasket it is because it is either a bombed engine or a fluke but when a DMax blow one, it is because of its aluminum heads. Do you mean to tell me that when a 1200 HP DMax blows a head gasket during a drag race, the aluminum heads are to blame?

ohioviper wrote:
It must suck to have spent all that money on a degree and be proved wrong by a dumb hillbilly.

My degree is not in engineering and I am the first person to admit that I am not an engineer. But your arguments aginst the DMax - and for the CTD just don't hold water. Even in the link you provided it states that the heads weren't torqued correctly from the factory. I don't care what the heads are made out of, if they aren't torqued correctly bad things can happen.

Head gaskets have been blown and heads cracked long before anyone decided to put aluminum heads on a cast iron block so there must be at least one other reason for blown head gaskets and cracked heads.

Bert

[Sport45]

In 25 years of engineering (Oilfield, Plant and Refinery) I don't recall ever being proven wrong by a dumb hillbilly. Try to avoid painting all of us with such a broad brush.

I've always worked closely with the field guys. Educating them where I could and learning from them when I can.

For instance, you wouldn't believe how many good operators with lots of experience don't know the difference between heat and temperature. Doesn't mean they're dumb, just somewhat lacking in education. They tell me what happens in the "real world" and I explain why it happened that way. I've found that most people like to learn.

[ohioviper]

Bent P wrote:
I guess that says it all, doesn't it?

Bert

Yes it does. We have a term for it at my work. Engineers lay it out on paper in an imaginary world. And we prove them wrong with the real world.
It must suck to have spent all that money on a degree and be proved wrong by a dumb hillbilly.

[BertP]

I know, Chris. Chauvenistic attitudes towards anything can rarely stand the light of day, but some people will defend their position regardless of how much evidence is produced contrary to their position.

ohioviper wrote:
You sound like my engineer.

I guess that says it all, doesn't it?

Bert

[bluenote]

Statistics and data can be used to support nearly any argument one can come up with. ohioviper has chosen to interpret information he gleaned from an internet search (not always the most reliable source) and used it to form an argument to support his opinion. You've gotta give him credit for sticking to his guns, whether he's making good sense or not.

[ohioviper]

Show me a Cummins with a blown head gasket and I will show you a truck that was bombed beyond what it was designed for, or a fluke. Put a box on it and turn up the fuel and remove the boost limit and you can blow the head gasket on any motor.

Over simplifying, I dont think so. Its not a simple issue when you are the one wondering why your truck has blown head gaskets.Then you will find yourself looking for info on why. Then you will read and learn the downfall of this design.

Bent P wrote:
Your assertion that every head gasket problem on a DMax is caused by the fact that it has aluminum heads doesn't have any data to support it.

You sound like my engineer. Data show me data. Hey its right there in front of your eyes.Cant see the forrest for the trees.


I remeber when I was a Diesel mechanic.... oh never mind.

I will show my wisdom with my money and buy what I think is the best design. Just like the big 3 .There are 3 kinds of truck owners. Those who know and those who dont, and those who will learn.

[BertP]

Try doing a google search on CTD and "blown head gasket". Since the CTD has a cast iron head on a cast iron block, why have so many of them blown their head gaskets? I think you are over simplifying things. A head gasket can be blown for all kinds of reasons including installing the wrong head gasket in the first place. Your assertion that every head gasket problem on a DMax is caused by the fact that it has aluminum heads doesn't have any data to support it.

I remember many years ago an old diesel mehcanic teaching me how to read diesel exhaust:

Black: too much fuel. Possible causes - air intake obstructions, bad injectors.
Blue: burning oil - check compression, valve guides.
White: coolant in the cylinder. Usually blown head gasket but possible cracked head or block/cylinder liner.

None of this stuff is new.

Bert

[ohioviper]

Look down about the 4th post.
(About 5,000 miles ago dealer had to pull cylinder head, leaking head gasket. Both were major jobs for my dealer. )

These are just ones I quickly found on the net. I know of several local folks with same issues.These problems have been only on the trucks that have been pulling on a regular basis, full timers and farmers, not trucks used as everyday drivers not towing or hauling.

The fact is that indeed the head gasket problems are a direct result of aluminum head iron block combination. Cat has seen same kind of head issues and so have others using the same design. Yes they have improved the problems and reliabilty is much improved due to better gasket design and use of o rings but it is still a serious dinger in the long term life of an engine.Also why they require the special coolant and very strict cooling system maintenance.

[Sport45]

blown duramax heads

BertP's right. The concensus of this thread is that there was a torque problem and rubbing due to looseness scored the head. Not an overabundance of head issues.

More blown head gaskets.

I read through 8 pages of this one and it's all about injectors. If heads or head gaskets or aluminum vs. cast iron are mentioned I missed it.

There isn't enough difference in the expansion rates of aluminum and cast iron to make a difference. With a 300F degree temperature change the differential expansion of aluminum and cast iron is 0.006" over a 4" span. I don't know the bore of these engines but 4" is probably close. 0.003" radial expansion won't make a difference. The aluminum head is bolted with steel bolts. Since aluminum grows more than steel the clamping force will increase as the engine heats up. This also seems to be a "good thing" about aluminum heads.

How are you going to avoid dissimilar metals in there anyway? I've never seen a cast iron head gasket.