Diesel vs gas......................

[blt2ski]

OK folks, there have been a few to many diesel vs gas threads that have shall we say gone to "Hell and a hand basket"! So if all of you would put in you BEST, no flaming reasons for going gas vs diesel, pro and con, I will either leave your thread, or copy and paste pertinant info to the 4 posts of pro and con of diesel or gas. This can include the GM 8.1 vs Dmax or Ford V-8/10 vs PSD etc too.

Be real and honest in you answers, not hear say, flaming etc PLEASE!

If posts are good ones, I will leave, if inflamatory or trolling in nature, they will be deleted! I will get this stick'd to the top for future parusing for those that need this type of info.

Added 6-23-04

We are getting closer to answers I am looking for etc.

Stuff like Ken's - T-Bone posts are good. There are a few others of you that have not posted, some with a 9 point question and answer type to figure out how you went with one or the other. If you are one of those, PLEASE repost in this thread. I may have to look up whom has done this and PM you, but if you think this is you, you now know what to do.

Also, for those of you with $ per gallon for either fuel right now, I would prefer to see a post with ...."in my area, diesel is typically .10 less than unleaded" then explain your numbers. As currently in the Seattle area, diesel and unleaded are any where from 2.05 -2.30 per gallon, with mid test .10 more and premium about .20 more, with equal high low splits. Two weeks ago those prices were upwards of .30 -.40 per gallon more. people were posting $ per gallon that were for me. "I wish" If someone is reading your post a year from now, they may want to know where your paying 1.65, when the price of fuel is over $3 per gallon. Let's keep prices out of it if possible.

Bert and tin tipi, got into a good discusion on the pros and cons of RPM's, drive train etc. I would prefer to NOT see the quote of the other in responding threads, maybe just write a quick wording of re tranny gearing, instead of the whole 40 words or so in that paragragh, so the repsonse is shorter if possible quicker and easier to read etc.

I have deleted some 15+/- posts, that were off topic etc. Please note, I am trying to keep this at the top, as the ONLY gas/diesel thread in this area. So if one is trying to decide, we do not have to go thru this BS any more. As such, I will be deleting ANY future posts close to resembling this type of topic. I may have to change "this" title to a better one, if one has a better sounding title, to be more positive, better claification, let me know here, or in a PM/e-mail, what ever you feel most comfortible with.

Again thank you for all of you that are keeping responses positive, etc.

Also we could use a few more positive reasons to go gas, as many can see I have both gas and diesel, both have a place! Both have positive reasons to buy that fuel, lets keep the threads etc to that purpose only!

Marty

[indmike]

Diesel $5,000 more for the truck,25 cents a gal.more for fuel I drive a School Bus every day 10 mpg on a long trip Cummings Diesel

[Denny4kids]

Hello, My last truck was a 2000 chevy 6 liter...nice truck. Only had to replace the batery in 50K . Not Bad!! Hook up a trailer and She did fair. A 3X horse trailer would really slow her down on hills. Now I have a duramax with a banks kit. Real nice unit that still has all the safeguards to keep the alison alive.
In stock form my duramax does not slow on hills much, and if I crank up the power she will fly.

I have a diesel for the tow power and ended up with a hot rod for everyday driving.
I believe this truck will out tow anything burning gas and if you can beat zero to sixty in less than 6.5 seconds you can give me a good run for my money!! Den.

[G_Man1]

What this thread needs is an unbiased, independent study comparing the two types of engines in all driving scenarios that yields a cost analysis based on statistical data. Does anyone know if one exists?

[tom_kat]

my feelings about deisel are if you can afford it go for it around here for every day use and towing the body will rot out befor it gets broke in and the cold weather will give you fits on starting unless you plug it in,maintance is higher, when you get done averageing ever thing out dont think your saveing any thing,if you realy do a lot of hauling and traveling and put 100s of thousands of miles on it deisel the way to go,most people will get sick of there unit and trade it in befor they get lots of miles on them,i have worked on heavy trucks most of my life and think there fine if you want one i would perfer gas for where i live,my gas vehicals will rot out befor the engine dies,and there much cheaper to repair and find someone to do the work if need be

[ayazkhan]

can u show me around coz im only new pleese

[TSeck]

Careful about your opinion of slow diesels. Ever seen a 7,000 pound bullet? Some of these trucks are wolfs in sheeps clothing.

http://www.dieselinnovations.com/ (Elevens in the quarter mile!)

I love mine. Just hard as he!! to get it away from my wife!

[markeheiden]

BertP, Finally someone who gets it! The only practical advantage to diesel is the mpg. and the main reason for that is the compression ratio available with the fuel. Compression=Efficiency.

[BertP]

try this link

http://turbokart.com/about_agt1500.htm

Thanks, but I found that link - and a myriad of others - but not a single one provided by the manufacturer. If you do a Google search on that engine, you will find an almost equal number of sites that claim an output rpm of 3500 or so rpm as those claiming and output of 30,000 or so rpm. I wanted to get the actual specs from the manufacturer so that there is no room for error.

My understanding of that engine is that its ouput is at 26,600 rpm. That is then fed through a gear reduction unit to produce a 3500 rpm output. So, if you measure the torque at the 26,600 rpm point, you will find around 290 lb ft. If you look at the output of the gear reduction unit, you will find around 2250 lb ft. But, just as I would never claim that my DMax generates 2800 lb ft of torque (520 lb ft from the engine * 3 [first gear ratio] * 3.73 [RE ratio]), I don't think that it is accurate to claim that the AGT 1500 generates 2250 lb ft of torque.

Bert

[mcdowra]

try this link

http://turbokart.com/about_agt1500.htm

[BertP]

here are the specs of the abram motor.

Textron Lycoming AGT 1500 Turboshaft

* Type: Three spool, free shaft turboshaft with recuperator
* Inlet: Axial bellmouth with integral FOD screen
* Compressor: Dual spool, mixed flow; 5 stage axial low pressure compressor, 4 stage axial and single stage centrifugal high pressure compressor.
* Turbine: Three spool, axial turbine; single stage high pressure turbine, single stage low pressure turbine, two stage free power turbine with variable geometry turbine nozzles.
* Exhaust: Upward scroll type exhaust, single exit exhaust outlet, integral cross flow fixed recuperator.
* Power Rating: 1,500 shaft horsepower at 3,000 rpm
* Peak Torque: 3950 lb/ft @ 1,000 rpm
* Weight: 2,450 lbs.
* Power/weight: .61:1
* Compression Ratio: Est. 16:1
* Specific Fuel Consumption: Est. .45 lb/shp/hr

thought you might like to see it

Those are not the specs of the engine but of the power pack. Do you really expect a turbine to even ignite at 3000 rpm?

See here for an explaination of how the engine works. Sorry, but I cannot find a single reference to this engine on the Textron site. I can't even find a reference to a turbine engine of any kind on their site. If anyone finds where they hide this info, I would appreciate a link.

Bert

[mcdowra]

here are the specs of the abram motor.

Textron Lycoming AGT 1500 Turboshaft

* Type: Three spool, free shaft turboshaft with recuperator
* Inlet: Axial bellmouth with integral FOD screen
* Compressor: Dual spool, mixed flow; 5 stage axial low pressure compressor, 4 stage axial and single stage centrifugal high pressure compressor.
* Turbine: Three spool, axial turbine; single stage high pressure turbine, single stage low pressure turbine, two stage free power turbine with variable geometry turbine nozzles.
* Exhaust: Upward scroll type exhaust, single exit exhaust outlet, integral cross flow fixed recuperator.
* Power Rating: 1,500 shaft horsepower at 3,000 rpm
* Peak Torque: 3950 lb/ft @ 1,000 rpm
* Weight: 2,450 lbs.
* Power/weight: .61:1
* Compression Ratio: Est. 16:1
* Specific Fuel Consumption: Est. .45 lb/shp/hr

thought you might like to see it

[BertP]

...Lets think about this a little and see what we come up with. First of all you don't see any gasoline powered semi's any more, do you? Thats because there is a reason for this. Gasoline engines while very smooth running, and able to generate high horse power, and extremely fast acceleration, generally lack the the internal mass to over come a sudden heavy load and will bog down. Even after over coming this they are unable to sustain the, or in many cases develop, the high heat values for producing the torque needed to move or continue to move a heavy load.

I think you need to reread this thread from the beginning. Neither the internal mass of the engine nor the fuel burned has a thing to do with whether an engine can move a load or not. I have used the example of the turbine many times in this thread: it burns exactly the same fuel as a diesel but develops a mere fraction of the torque and has less internal mass than a diesel. Yet, the 70 ton Abrahms tank is powered by one that produces less than 300 lb ft of torque. The reason that it is successful is because it develops 1500 HP. The only reason that there are no gas powered semis anymore, as has been pointed out in this thread many times, is economy: diesels burn less fuel for a given amount of HP and, therefore, get better fuel mileage. That's it. No torque argument, no internal mass argument, no longevity argument. Gas engines can and have been built with just as much or more torque than current diesels - both in our pickups and for larger rigs - but they simply consume too much fuel to be commercially viable. If the engineers can develop a gas engine that gets similar mileage to a diesel, you will see a resurgence of gas engines in many areas. Diesel fuel is a royal pain. It's messy and it stinks. So does the exhaust of a diesel engine. Diesel fuel does have the advantage that it is not explosive like gasoline, so it is safer to store, but gas can be stored safely as well.

Since the fuel is more efficient you end up using less.

It is the engine that is more efficient, not the fuel.

The same is true when loaded, the diesel produces more heat and more work. The gasoline can't keep up with the work requested and for exmple on a long hill starts to loose ground.

I posted a set of formulas given to me by Pete (aquaduct) who happens to be a diesel engineer. You should have a look at those formulas. They will explain exactly why one vehicle will lose speed on a hill while another will not. And, no, it has nothing to do with what kind if engine is under the hood.

Ultimatly the decision is yours. If your willing to suffer some while towing and wish to save a lot of money in initial purchase, then gas is your answer.

Suffer some? GM rates their 8.1 gasser and their DMax diesel the same as far as towing is concerned. I doubt that anyone who owns an 8.1 gasser is suffering very much at all.

I have always referred to the Ford V10 as the poor mans diesel.

And some people refer to diesels as a rich man's gasser. That doesn't make either statement correct.

Remeber if you want to save 25 percent on your fuel, just cut your speed down from 65 to 55.

Good advice regardless of what you have under the hood.

P.S.S. Forgot to mention that with the stock 35 gal. tank I don't fill until after hitting 600 miles running light. 300 to 450 towing depending on terrain, speed wind etc. This gives me an awful lot of flexibility when it comes to finding good prices. The other day I fueled in Lake Station IN. for 1.84 and passed stations on the way home that were as much as 46 cents a gallon more. I went 110 miles going home and it never moved off the full mark. One note of caution to new diesel owners. DIESEL FUEL likes to foam up when filling, which makes topping off a time consuming job. I've pumped and additional 4.5 in but its a slow go.

As I mentioned above, the advantage diesels have is fuel efficiency. Nothing more.

Bert

[Plasma_Strikes]

Don't make the mistake of trying to compare a diesel to a gasser. They don't compare, because they aren't the same vehicle. Don't compare a cruiser to a tug boat. They're not the same nor were they intended to do the same things. That is except to float when wet. Lets think about this a little and see what we come up with. First of all you don't see any gasoline powered semi's any more, do you? Thats because there is a reason for this. Gasoline engines while very smooth running, and able to generate high horse power, and extremely fast acceleration, generally lack the the internal mass to over come a sudden heavy load and will bog down. Even after over coming this they are unable to sustain the, or in many cases develop, the high heat values for producing the torque needed to move or continue to move a heavy load. Diesel fuel has a higher specific gravity than gasoline and there fore produces more BTU's per gallon. Not to be confused with flash point. These are two entirely different and un related things. Basically its all about generating heat. Diesel makes more per gallon and the engine is designed to handle it. When your running light you need the same heat for the amount of work done as the guy with a gasser. Since the fuel is more efficient you end up using less. The same is true when loaded, the diesel produces more heat and more work. The gasoline can't keep up with the work requested and for exmple on a long hill starts to loose ground. Ultimatly the decision is yours. If your willing to suffer some while towing and wish to save a lot of money in initial purchase, then gas is your answer. I have always referred to the Ford V10 as the poor mans diesel. I also refer to limited slip as the poor mans four wheel drive, and have owned a lot through the years. Nothing wrong with either.

Right now I run a 2004 Dodge 3500 SRW 4X4 HO Cummins Turbo Diesel with Six Speed Tranny. I love it, and tows my trailer like its not there.

P.S. 14.5 towing and 23.5 at 55 MPH empty. Drops to 21.5 at 60 MPH. Just keep the R's down or the MPG will be.

Remeber if you want to save 25 percent on your fuel, just cut your speed down from 65 to 55.

P.S.S. Forgot to mention that with the stock 35 gal. tank I don't fill until after hitting 600 miles running light. 300 to 450 towing depending on terrain, speed wind etc. This gives me an awful lot of flexibility when it comes to finding good prices. The other day I fueled in Lake Station IN. for 1.84 and passed stations on the way home that were as much as 46 cents a gallon more. I went 110 miles going home and it never moved off the full mark. One note of caution to new diesel owners. DIESEL FUEL likes to foam up when filling, which makes topping off a time consuming job. I've pumped and additional 4.5 in but its a slow go.

[TajMahallin]

Wow,what a topic.My personal experience started with an 01 chev 8.1 ext cab,short box.I got a whoppin 9 miles to the gallon on the highway at 75 or less,6.5 pulling my 32ft 5er.In less than 3000 miles I traded on an 02 duramax quad cab long box.my first tank of fuel averaged 16mpg.this was a combination of city/highway driving.I have not towed with it yet but am looking forward to pullin the 5er.Diesel fuel in our area is about .8to.11 crnts a gallon higher but I will gladly pay.The ironic part of this is I am an ase certified technician of 25 yrs that absolutely hated diesel. I guess you can say I am a convert.(LOL)

[SpoiledRotten]

Hello! 1st. Time posting,i'm really enjoying the site and info. Just wanted to share some of my info on the v10 and the diesel topic.
I own a 2003 f350 lariat LE, 4x4, v10, dually, Pioneer Avic80 navigation system, xm radio, 30k hidden hitch goosneck/5th wheel, 51ft. stepdeck, hauling heavy equipment and a 20ft. bumper pull motorcycle trailer. When towing, I am always around 10 mpg. For some reason i think i was getting 11-12 mpg. when i first purchased. Soon to be supercharged! Well i like the v10 because there is no "cold winter plug ins", alot less maintenance, cheaper oil changes, nice and quiet, and its an equivalent gas motor compared to the diesel,it runs a couple hundred rpm's higher, I have no problems pulling hills, I don't like slowing down much neither am i looking to race and outrun every diesel :W I'm running 84k miles, 1 water pump, and one rad. flush, oil changes every 7k. that was all that was needed since I purchased this truck back in Aug. 2002 w/0 miles, i'll change the spark plugs soon i would rather not run the 100,000 even tho' it will hold i think im close enough. I'll run this v10 until I can afford to buy a f650.

My v10 is good to me and will produce plenty more good miles and work, I would recommend a v10 to anyone who asked.

If i were to purchase another f350 it would most likely be a v10, especially the new 3 valve w/5 speed trans. that has to be nice.


Thanks!

titanchief

I have no problem pulling hills. I don't have to run a couple of rpm's higher because mine is powerful enough at lower rpm's. I change oil every 7,ooo miles also at $65.00 per change. If you can run 7000 miles between oil changes, then I would suspect that you have a capacity as large as mine, so unless you are using some mighty cheap oil, your change would cost about the same. As far as being faster than a diesel, I would probably take your pink slip away from you in a race. And I would take it even easier when my truck has 250,000 miles on it, and your has been collecting rust in the junk yard for a couple of years. Did I say that?