Future of the diesel?

[BurbMan]

Good article from Ward's Auto that gives a good global overview on the diesel market with interviews from big brand executives.

Interesting commentary that electric powertrains are angling to replace the diesel as the preferred torque monsters for towing....not sure how you get enough battery life to pull a 15k 5er up a pass in the Rockies though....no question that an electric traction motor will out-torque a diesel, but the electric trains around here run on 750v AC power, not on-board batteries.

Link to Article

[brulaz]

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109095_volvo-concept-truck-uses-hybrid-power-to-cut-fuel-use-em...

This is a report on Volvo Truck's Diesel Electric Hybrid Concept.
Not too detailed, but I liked this part:

The concept is also fitted with a hybrid-specific version of Volvo's I-See driver-assist system, which analyzes upcoming topography using GPS data and digital maps. Software determines the most efficient use of both the diesel engine and electric motor based on the terrain, as well as the optimal times for energy recovery, Volvo says.

[ShinerBock]

BenK wrote:
DC Electric motors can have up to or over 300% torque at ZERO RPM vs
any ICE that has ZERO torque at zero RPM...nature of that beast (laws of physics)

While it is true that electric motors have 100% of their available torque at 0 rpm, which varies depending on how much power is coming from the batteries, when was the last time your ICE idled at 0 rpm? Idling for an electric motor is 0 rpm and idling for an ICE engines is around 700 rpm.

Also, if the ICE is making zero torque at 0 rpm, then technically you can't say an electric motor makes 300% more. 0 + 300% = 0.

[brulaz]

In European cities you can see all-electric semi's even now.
We saw one in Amsterdam hauling containers around town.
And I see Mercedes is getting into the act.
http://www.autoblog.com/2017/02/20/mercedes-benz-urban-electric-truck-real-world-test/

[RobertRyan]

Dayle1 wrote:
Maybe I missed something, but in the article I didn't see anything about electrics replacing diesels for heavy towing requirements. Lots was said about the decline in small diesels in cars. And I didn't see anything about the death of diesels for commercial vehicle bigger than HD trucks. So how does the article relate to tow vehicles? What am I missing?

But while on the topic it seems to me that diesel locomotives don't have weight limitations and railroads can use multiple locomotives at steep grades only. Over the road is a different situation. Weight (and cost) of traction motors, small diesel and batteries must be lower than existing diesel solutions for both HD pickups and bigger commercial rigs. And a single tow vehicle must work over a wider range of conditions than a single locomotive.

Seems to be alternative Universe outside NA. More diesels are coming in trucks, vans, SUV's and cars. They do have congestion tax in some Cities, London.
, Paris and Madrid.
They have EV's and Hybrids, but they are in a tiny minority. Vans, Cab Chassis Vans and Trucks are all diesel.

[Dayle1]

msmith1.wa wrote:
These have been available to fleets for a while now. http://www.viamotors.com

With a 1000 lb payload, and no tow rating, it is a truck in size only and not available to consumers. And the cost is??

[Hannibal]

missnmountains wrote:
"The scary stuff about hybrid battery replacement has turned out to be largely urban legend. My son drives an Escape hybrid with over 160,000 miles on the original battery with no decline in performance. Prius batteries routinely go 200,000+ and can be reconditioned for as little as $1500, far cheaper than a set of diesel injectors. But I will admit that hybrids may not fare so well in the RV world. The key to the long battery life is the controller maintaining a state of charge between a fairly narrow range. For more power on long pulls you may have to draw the battery down much more, resulting in shorter battery life."

Not exactly true. We lived in Colorado for 33 years. Batteries lasted up to 10 years. In Florida, we are lucky to get 2 to 3 years. My boat which has 6 8D's last maybe 2.5 years and are $1,200.00 each (AGM).

Southern states wreak havoc on batteries.

Ken

While heat takes it's toll on batteries, the traction battery in my Prius is warrantied for 8 years or 100k miles. They typically last around 12 years regardless of mileage, even in Florida. They weigh right at 100 lbs and can be changed out with hand tools under the shade tree. Cost is around $1800 OTC. No transmisstion, no belts, no starter... 53mpg city makes it worth it as much as I drive for work. The haters have no basis for their banter.
If Ford offered a hybrid F250 that would tow our TT, I'd be first in line.

[msmith1_wa]

These have been available to fleets for a while now. http://www.viamotors.com

[missnmountains]

"The scary stuff about hybrid battery replacement has turned out to be largely urban legend. My son drives an Escape hybrid with over 160,000 miles on the original battery with no decline in performance. Prius batteries routinely go 200,000+ and can be reconditioned for as little as $1500, far cheaper than a set of diesel injectors. But I will admit that hybrids may not fare so well in the RV world. The key to the long battery life is the controller maintaining a state of charge between a fairly narrow range. For more power on long pulls you may have to draw the battery down much more, resulting in shorter battery life."

Not exactly true. We lived in Colorado for 33 years. Batteries lasted up to 10 years. In Florida, we are lucky to get 2 to 3 years. My boat which has 6 8D's last maybe 2.5 years and are $1,200.00 each (AGM).

Southern states wreak havoc on batteries.

Ken

[Dayle1]

Maybe I missed something, but in the article I didn't see anything about electrics replacing diesels for heavy towing requirements. Lots was said about the decline in small diesels in cars. And I didn't see anything about the death of diesels for commercial vehicle bigger than HD trucks. So how does the article relate to tow vehicles? What am I missing?

But while on the topic it seems to me that diesel locomotives don't have weight limitations and railroads can use multiple locomotives at steep grades only. Over the road is a different situation. Weight (and cost) of traction motors, small diesel and batteries must be lower than existing diesel solutions for both HD pickups and bigger commercial rigs. And a single tow vehicle must work over a wider range of conditions than a single locomotive.

[stew47]

Long time ago I used to work maintenance in a plant. Worked on electric tow motors of all sizes. The torque was incredible.

[whatimmadoboutm]

horton333 wrote:

thomasmnile wrote:


Now if they could only make a lithium ion battery with a decent lifespan in a smartphone, especially since more and more of them come with integrated, not consumer replaceable batteries. :B

I have replaced the batteries in several phones that supposedly had non-serviceable batteries (including ones that were not even listed for replacement by a tech). Buy the battery on Amazon and they even throw in the miniature screw drivers and a tool to pry open the case.
Where there is a need ...

Or better yet, don't support that segment of the market in the first place, and it will disappear. I do admire that you found a solution, though.

[BenK]

DC Electric motors can have up to or over 300% torque at ZERO RPM vs
any ICE that has ZERO torque at zero RPM...nature of that beast (laws of physics)

And that, that electric motor torque curve is FLAT...main issue is with the max RPM...electric motors do not have the high RPMs folks are used to with ICE's. There are specialty electric motor that can, but they are expensive and their duty cycle is low...or if they will make a brushless DC motor where you can weaken the field...then very high RPMs can be attained...down side is reduced torque

Burbman is right on the power source. Saline batteries are of great interest to me in this regard, but they are not ready for prime time in automotive. They are becoming the standard for the telecom industry.

As for the life of a Lith-Ion battery...it has to do with both the controller design and how low it is drained down to. Drain it down below 40% (on some, but not all) will reduce a lith-ion's life by a very large margin.

It taken care of (a good controller will do most of that via not allowing you to drain it down too low...and the three charge cycles)

Capacitor batteries are another potential, but they too are not ready for prime time in automotive. Lith-Ion or any of the current battery technologies employed in automotive can NOT take a charge quickly....the why regenerative braking is not a big deal...as they can NOT brake enough by absorbing that regen power

Pretty cool and thank you Burbman for posting...brings back memories of my first career in motor controls !!!! :C

PS...Burbman touched on locomotive traction motors...locomotive engines have been hybrids since about 1950. Diesel directly connected to a generator, which powers the electric traction motors, which are double shafted where the steel wheels are bolted to those electric motor shafts...why locomotive traction motors has a flat area on their case...that is the bottom to allow a bit more ground clearance

[horton333]

thomasmnile wrote:


Now if they could only make a lithium ion battery with a decent lifespan in a smartphone, especially since more and more of them come with integrated, not consumer replaceable batteries. :B

I have replaced the batteries in several phones that supposedly had non-serviceable batteries (including ones that were not even listed for replacement by a tech). Buy the battery on Amazon and they even throw in the miniature screw drivers and a tool to pry open the case.
Where there is a need ...

[gbopp]

thomasmnile wrote:
Now if they could only make a lithium ion battery with a decent lifespan in a smartphone, especially since more and more of them come with integrated, not consumer replaceable batteries. :B

It's called Planned obsolescence or built-in obsolescence. 😞

Why sell a battery when they can sell you a new phone?