Getting started....tow vehicle recommendations....PLEASE!

[AWbucky]

We are looking at starting the adventure of having a travel trailer!!!! Our plan is to start with the tow vehicle. We are expecting to purchase a TT that is around 23ft. We would like to get a SUV to be our tow vehicle and was wondering if anyone has advice of pros and cons they have encountered. We are looking into the Ford expedition, jeep Cherokee and dodge Durango. We will need to purchase used 2008-2011. Any help would be appreciated!!!

[searfoss]

AWbucky wrote:
I also wanted to ask if there is a better "season" to purchase TT, both used and new???? Also if there are better states to get them in. We are in Colorado but are willing to travel to nearby states.

My Dodge is a 4X2 instead of a 4x4, I bought it during a Blizzard,

The sales man would not come down in price, so I was going home, as I was getting in my van it started to snow. I walked back into the dealer asked for a manager walked him out the door and then made a lower offer on the truck. He looked at the blanket of fresh snow and accepted my original offer.

So do not buy a 4x4 during the winter months, everyone wants a 4x4.

AWbucky wrote:
Our first choice right now is the F250 but are still considering the silverado, ram, gmc and possibly a Toyota tundra(we know it's not 3/4 but is supposed to tow almost the same.)

All good choices, it will come down to comfort and feel. Bacj in 2005 we found Chevy rode smoother than Dodge, but Dodge had more shoulder room. Ford didn't seem to handle as well or turn as tight as Chevy or Dodge.

[myredracer]

Don't know about the Silverado and others you mentioned. When we upgraded from 1/2 to 3/4 ton, both with long box, our new 3/4 ton has the supercab which makes the overall length about 20" longer. Holy smokes, the extra length is so much harder to turn around corners and park in parking lots. Never would have guessed. Makes it much more interesting getting the truck and trailer around some corners! And our trailer is only 29'.

IMHO, the extra overall length of a tow vehicle is definitely something to think about before committing.


If shopping for a new RV, the end of the camping season is always best price-wise. They don't want them languishing on their lots all winter. You can squeeze them a lot harder then. Beware of the model year they are flogging. An RV could really be a 2012 model that has been sitting for a while. Then when you start camping in 2014, it's already 2 years old before you've even used it. Some makers start bringing out their new model years starting about now. So compared to other RVS, a 2012 model that you just bought could quickly look like a 3 year old one. Not a big deal if you intend to keep a long time, but if you ever decide to sell it not too long after, it will affect the market value.

Next best time I think, is around Feb. or so before the season is really gearing up. Dealers want to start getting new orders going to get them in a couple of months later. Many RV shows are in Feb. and are a good way to see what's coming up. Better deals available then rather than waiting another 2-3 months.

Also keep in mind that if buying new, dealer servicing for warranty will be important. Local dealers don't want to work on new units purchased anywhere else, esp. several states away. Also, looking into dealer "quality" is a good idea. They range from awful to outstanding.

[AWbucky]

I also wanted to ask if there is a better "season" to purchase TT, both used and new???? Also if there are better states to get them in. We are in Colorado but are willing to travel to nearby states.

[AWbucky]

The reason we decided on the 3/4 ton vs 1/2 ton was to open up options on a TT. We know to get the tow package as well. Our first choice right now is the F250 but are still considering the silverado, ram, gmc and possibly a Toyota tundra(we know it's not 3/4 but is supposed to tow almost the same.) My husband got a smaller car and that will be his car and our go to vehicle when we are together. I will be the one driving the truck day to day. I figure on about 15o miles/month when we are not traveling. Really not too bad. Any opinions on these vehicles. Pluses and minuses....also features we should look into. We will be getting a crew cab with a short bed.

[myredracer]

Skimore: No, didn't weigh without loading. If I had thought we would be where we are on weights, I would have. It'd be a bit of a pain now to empty everything and then drive to the scale and back. I'm making an edumacated guess that it's 200-300 lbs. Possibly a little more? Agree, it would be interesting to know what the weight of just our cargo is.

The 960 lb tongue weight is from calculating after 3 passes through the scale. We had purchased 800 lb spring bars for our WDH and they did not work with this much tongue wt. Bought 1200 lb bars and weight transfer is good now. Another reason to know your actual numbers.

I can tell you that we have been through the wringer with weight issues and frame strength. I was just out looking at our frame. The upper & lower flanges and web (the vertical/center part of beam) are made from 1/8" sheet steel welded together. If you sight down them from front to back, there is an amazing degree of sag in them. They sag around where the spring hanger brackets are. I just noticed a big hole in the web on one side for the slide mechanism. It sure appears to me to be inadequately reinforced by what I am used to in structural engineering practices in building construction. Not impressed there. Also, the slide mechanism is rubbing on one side of the hole in the beam. The hole needs enlarging on one side. If done (dealer I assume?) this would further weaken the beam. The entire beam seems very inadequate for the static and dynamic loads imposed on it. Where the spring hangers attach, the lower flanges are deformed and look wavy up and down near them. The spring hangers actually sway left and right when towing the trailer.

As I said earlier, this is not unique to our trailer. I had a look at trailers on another dealer's lot with different brands and saw the same thing. Problem is, there are no design standards that can be enforced and Lippert can produce whatever they want without any accountability.

From my viewpoint, knowing what I know now, I have to say that anyone who ignores weight limits and capacities and thinks they're perfectly okay, is playing with fire. It's not really that hard to check your actual weights, so why not play it safe? Knowledge is power. Empower yourself! If you don't have the TV or trailer yet, ask around on the forums to find what people are finding for actual weights.


We upgraded from a 1/2 ton to 3/4, and even if we could have towed our new TT with the 1/2 ton, the 3/4 ton is sooo much nicer to use for towing. Everything about it is more heavy duty and we don't have to worry about over-stressing it. The stiffer suspension really helps with handling and sway. We have good spare capacity in the truck. We just bought a load of firewood while away camping and packed it in as tight as we could. Much of it was wet. I'm guessing we had close to 1,000 lbs of payload on top of the tongue wt. Could not have done that with a 1/2 ton. Some want to load a quad or motorbike in the bed. Same issue. Good to have spare payload for when you need it. If you're on the fence when buying a new one, I'd go to 3/4 ton.

Weight info. from KZ's website is below. Don't think I have seen other manufacturers include this on their website or elsewhere. Funny, they tell you all this but then build them with little actual cargo capacity and they weigh almost as much as the GVWR. Plus the other issues I've mentioned....

There's two components to the weight issue on trailers. One is the structural capacity of the frame and the other is the weight that the RV manufacturer builds on top of it and the GVWR they assign to it. I don't think axle capacities are an issue other than they *could* install higher load capacity axles. But if the frame is like rubber, that won't help anything.

It just does not make sense. KZ clearly says not to overload the RV. But they build them with a fresh water tank, grey tank (2 for us) and black tank. But if you tow with anyone of them full, your RV WILL be
overloaded. Tow with all 4 tanks full, and you will be grossly overloaded. I guess they don't make their RVs for dry camping?? :?

Not trying to specifically knock KZ. This is an issue I see happening with other brands and models and those that use Lippert frames. Lippert has about 95% share of the frame market unfortunately.

I'd be interested in hearing about anyone else's similar experiences.

VEHICLE LOADING - Every effort has been made to provide the greatest number of options for the recreational owner. Each owner is responsible to select loads allowing the recreational vehicle to remain within the manufacturer's specified chassis weight limits. Do not overload the recreational vehicle.
UNLOADED VEHICLE WEIGHT (UVW) - The typical weight of this trailer as built at the factory. The UVW does not include cargo, LP gas, fresh water, options or dealer-installed accessories.
GROSS VEHICLE WEIGHT RATING (GVWR) - The maximum permissible weight of the trailer, including the UVW plus passengers, all cargo, personal items, fluids, options and dealer-installed accessories. The GVRW is equal to or greater than the sum of the UVW and the NCC.
NET CARRYING CAPACITY (NCC) - The maximum weight of all passengers, personal items, fresh water, food, tools, LP gas, other cargo and dealer-installed accessories* that can be carried by the trailer. NCC is equal to or less than GVWR minus UVW.
* The addition of options will decrease the NCC.

[CKNSLS]

Yes, I have seen that term "ultra light" all over the place. It doesn't seem fit once you look at the numbers. I'd like some of that "low fat bacon" right about now.
I'd like some of that "low fat bacon" right about now.



HA......HA....HA!:)

[SkiMore]

Good answer as to why to look at GVWR.

I was afraid the trailer MFG websites were making it look too easy. I guess my fear was justified.

Thanks for all the information. I'm learning a lot.
1. Don't exceed towing weight. This is math. I understand.
2. Don't exceed payload weight. This is math. I understand.
3. Longer wheelbase is better. It's hard to look at the spec sheets and know when it is long enough.

I was kinda hoping a Grand Cherokee or similar could tow something. I guess I better be looking at something like a Casita 16' if I want such a short wheelbase TV.


myredracer: Did you weigh you TT before you loaded your stuff in? It would be interesting to see how much the dealer/mfg options options added and how much your stuff added.

Is the 960 lb vs 518 lb difference primarily the MFG using 10% and you using 15% in your calculations or is it a measured thing?

You know what you are talking about and are cutting it pretty close. Lots of people must be over.

Sounds like people should look for TTs with larger payload capacities to give more room for options.

It also sounds like trailer life would be improved if you tow with empty or near empty tanks.

Yes, I have seen that term "ultra light" all over the place. It doesn't seem fit once you look at the numbers. I'd like some of that "low fat bacon" right about now.

[CKNSLS]

myredracer wrote:
Once again, and as many others have said all over the place, "towing capacity" is NOT the only thing to go by. Just as important is the payload capacity, if not the most important thing. And it needs to be the actual payload capacity, not the published number or the one on the door jamb.

Trailer manufacturers conveniently do not tell anyone about TV payload capacity. They like to flog their towing capacities. The "1/2 ton towable" label is a croc. KZ is now even flogging a "1500 towable" and "2500 towable" label on their units. More croc. They and magazines like Trailer Life tell you that a KZ Durango 5th wheel weighing over 8,000 lbs dry can be towed with a 1/2 ton. That 5-er could have a pin weight around 2,000 lbs and even our 3/4 ton could not handle it. If nobody cares about payload capacity, you can tow just about anything as long as the tires on the TV don't pop, the bumper doesn't hit the ground and you can get the trailer moving. I'd like someone to say what 1/2 ton is truly able to tow this 5th wheel with a 1/2 ton and not go over the payload capacity or RGAWR.

The way the tow vehicle and trailer industry is when it comes to towing capacity is really bad. If the trailer manufacturers don't care about payload limits, how is the average RV-er supposed to know about payload capacities, let alone take it seriously?

SkiMore: Here is what happened with our recently acquired new TT to give you a good example of what happens. It's 29' long and is an "ultralite". Has a factory published dry weight (UVW) of 5237 lbs. Dry tongue wt. of 518 lbs. Sounds pretty good! You'd think a 1/2 ton would be more than adequate. The UVW does NOT include any factory options such as electric stabilizer jacks, fiberglass cap, electric awning, etc. Also does not include dealer installed things like batteries, propane tanks and spare tire. The UVW sticker inside our TT is a couple of lbs higher than the published UVW of 5237 lbs. HOWEVER. After loading our TT with some basic stuff for camping (BBQ, folding alum. chairs, outdoor mat, misc. sewer fittings & hoses, X-chocks, some clothes for 2 of us, a small stock of food supplies, toaster, coffee maker and a small selection of plates, utensils, water & pop, etc.), our trailer weight came in at 6,600 lbs upon weighing at a scale. That's 1363 lbs above the UVW. That's not terribly out of line from the norm. But we could easily pack more into the TT for a longer trip. Problem is, the GVWR is 6800 lbs and we are almost at capacity. We could never travel with a full tank of fresh water even. And with the tongue weight, it's actually 960 lbs -far cry from the 518 lb published figure. Some 1/2 ton trucks would not be able to handle this "ultralite" without overloading it. I know our old F150 would have been overloaded on payload.

I now have to laugh at the cargo carrying capacity labelled on our TT: 1320 lbs. Really??? Not even close to the actual 200 lbs left.... If we weighed our cargo and added 1320 lbs worth, we would be waaay over the GVWR. What the heck??

Another thing that happens if your GVWR is near the max. is that your ST tires may near their max. capacity. Our load range C tires give a max. capacity of 7280 lbs. That's not much over our TT GVWR. Very little safety margin and it will lead to reduced tire life.

Our situation with weight is typical of other brands and models of trailers. We are not alone...

In some cases you must also look at rear GAWR. Using the above KZ Durango example, does anyone at all tell you to check the RGAWR because of the pin weight? Nope. A lot of owners only find out from reading RV forums.

Once you start looking at the reality of the various weight limits and capacities, it's a real eye opener. Another related story: We just had our new TT into a frame shop for insp. by a gov't designated facility. They found the frame has "extreme flex". They said the frame will eventually crack and welds will fail. Actually already showing signs of failure. There is so much frame flex, that I found a separated weld between two aluminum frame members. It's not if the frame will fail - it's when. This is a Lippert frame and they are common to a lot of other brands and models of trailers out there. Point is, if you are running near GVWR, or for those that don't care about overloading, you are putting A LOT of stress on your frame and it WILL eventually have problems. The lower you can keep your total weight, the better. I am so glad we found out at the beginning and have been able to get something done about it. Don't believe me on these frames? Do some googling and read the stories about frame failures.

And don't forget that your WDH is part of the equation. You need to get some of the tongue weight properly transferred onto the front (steer) axles and trailer axles otherwise the drive axle will be taking more weight than it should and you *could* exceed the RGAWR.. I cringe when I see people in our cg pulling trailers with a 1/2 ton with no WDH at all.

The reason some people (the smart ones) say to use the GVWR is that is the absolute max. your TT should weigh. As you can see by our example, it's easy to reach. Not only that, it's easy to end up over it. Do NOT use dry weights for anything - period. Nowadays, trailer manufacturers are flogging their RVS on the basis of dry weights and it's a competition between brands. Payload capacities and safety don't even come up. It's almost criminal. Same with TV manufacturers.

One has to be conscious of what goes in to a TT when packing. It does one no good to purchase an Ultra Light and then pack heavy...kinda of defeating the purpose. My 29 foot travel trailer has A DRY WEIGHT of 4,600 pounds. One thing I have found is the term "Ultra Light" is used quite loosely in the RV industry. IMHO once you get over 5,000 pounds or so I don't know if I would call it an Ultra Light. There are truly 1/2 ton towable Ultra Lights out there. You do have to watch the GVWR.

[myredracer]

Once again, and as many others have said all over the place, "towing capacity" is NOT the only thing to go by. Just as important is the payload capacity, if not the most important thing. And it needs to be the actual payload capacity, not the published number or the one on the door jamb.

Trailer manufacturers conveniently do not tell anyone about TV payload capacity. They like to flog their towing capacities. The "1/2 ton towable" label is a croc. KZ is now even flogging a "1500 towable" and "2500 towable" label on their units. More croc. They and magazines like Trailer Life tell you that a KZ Durango 5th wheel weighing over 8,000 lbs dry can be towed with a 1/2 ton. That 5-er could have a pin weight around 2,000 lbs and even our 3/4 ton could not handle it. If nobody cares about payload capacity, you can tow just about anything as long as the tires on the TV don't pop, the bumper doesn't hit the ground and you can get the trailer moving. I'd like someone to say what 1/2 ton is truly able to tow this 5th wheel with a 1/2 ton and not go over the payload capacity or RGAWR.

The way the tow vehicle and trailer industry is when it comes to towing capacity is really bad. If the trailer manufacturers don't care about payload limits, how is the average RV-er supposed to know about payload capacities, let alone take it seriously?

SkiMore: Here is what happened with our recently acquired new TT to give you a good example of what happens. It's 29' long and is an "ultralite". Has a factory published dry weight (UVW) of 5237 lbs. Dry tongue wt. of 518 lbs. Sounds pretty good! You'd think a 1/2 ton would be more than adequate. The UVW does NOT include any factory options such as electric stabilizer jacks, fiberglass cap, electric awning, etc. Also does not include dealer installed things like batteries, propane tanks and spare tire. The UVW sticker inside our TT is a couple of lbs higher than the published UVW of 5237 lbs. HOWEVER. After loading our TT with some basic stuff for camping (BBQ, folding alum. chairs, outdoor mat, misc. sewer fittings & hoses, X-chocks, some clothes for 2 of us, a small stock of food supplies, toaster, coffee maker and a small selection of plates, utensils, water & pop, etc.), our trailer weight came in at 6,600 lbs upon weighing at a scale. That's 1363 lbs above the UVW. That's not terribly out of line from the norm. But we could easily pack more into the TT for a longer trip. Problem is, the GVWR is 6800 lbs and we are almost at capacity. We could never travel with a full tank of fresh water even. And with the tongue weight, it's actually 960 lbs -far cry from the 518 lb published figure. Some 1/2 ton trucks would not be able to handle this "ultralite" without overloading it. I know our old F150 would have been overloaded on payload.

I now have to laugh at the cargo carrying capacity labelled on our TT: 1320 lbs. Really??? Not even close to the actual 200 lbs left.... If we weighed our cargo and added 1320 lbs worth, we would be waaay over the GVWR. What the heck??

Another thing that happens if your GVWR is near the max. is that your ST tires may near their max. capacity. Our load range C tires give a max. capacity of 7280 lbs. That's not much over our TT GVWR. Very little safety margin and it will lead to reduced tire life.

Our situation with weight is typical of other brands and models of trailers. We are not alone...

In some cases you must also look at rear GAWR. Using the above KZ Durango example, does anyone at all tell you to check the RGAWR because of the pin weight? Nope. A lot of owners only find out from reading RV forums.

Once you start looking at the reality of the various weight limits and capacities, it's a real eye opener. Another related story: We just had our new TT into a frame shop for insp. by a gov't designated facility. They found the frame has "extreme flex". They said the frame will eventually crack and welds will fail. Actually already showing signs of failure. There is so much frame flex, that I found a separated weld between two aluminum frame members. It's not if the frame will fail - it's when. This is a Lippert frame and they are common to a lot of other brands and models of trailers out there. Point is, if you are running near GVWR, or for those that don't care about overloading, you are putting A LOT of stress on your frame and it WILL eventually have problems. The lower you can keep your total weight, the better. I am so glad we found out at the beginning and have been able to get something done about it. Don't believe me on these frames? Do some googling and read the stories about frame failures.

And don't forget that your WDH is part of the equation. You need to get some of the tongue weight properly transferred onto the front (steer) axles and trailer axles otherwise the drive axle will be taking more weight than it should and you *could* exceed the RGAWR.. I cringe when I see people in our cg pulling trailers with a 1/2 ton with no WDH at all.

The reason some people (the smart ones) say to use the GVWR is that is the absolute max. your TT should weigh. As you can see by our example, it's easy to reach. Not only that, it's easy to end up over it. Do NOT use dry weights for anything - period. Nowadays, trailer manufacturers are flogging their RVS on the basis of dry weights and it's a competition between brands. Payload capacities and safety don't even come up. It's almost criminal. Same with TV manufacturers.

[SkiMore]

Newb question here.
I think I understand dry weight vs. GVWR in the TT spec.
Why is GVWR the only number to consider? One of the earlier posters mentioned an Arctic fox with a dry weight of 4815# and a GVWR of 7500#. Am I really likely to add 2700# of stuff to a 22' TT?

What if the same TT only had a 6800# GVWR, but was otherwise the same. Would that affect the TV that was needed?

I guess what I'm saying is shouldn't you consider actual loaded weight as opposed to the max it is rated to carry?

[searfoss]

Some advice from someone who has been there, done that.

You have started off well by coming to the forum to read and post questions.

Don’t fall into the “its an 8 cylinder it can tow” anything mind set. Tow capacity is more than the engine size, there is also; gear ratio in the axle, transmission, suspension cooling and breaking to consider in towing. People on here have towed with a small block V8 like a 5.3, but, most prefer the 5.7 or larger. The tow vehicle will list a “gear ratio” like 355 or 410. The higher the number the more torque to the wheels and more the vehicle can tow (lower MPG), and of course a ¾ ton or 1 ton truck is built heavier which includes things like suspension, breaks cooling.

Some will tell you that a 1 ton dually is needed to tow a pop-up, so be careful of that mindset also.

So before your head starts spinning, most auto-makers have an area that list lowing capacity for their trucks, here Is the web site for my Dodge as an example. It tells me what the maximum trail weight I can SAFELY tow. Can you tow beyond that? Sure but not safely, you will not like it and your insurance company may have issues should you file a claim from an accident.

I bought my Dodge Ram used and there are many nice used trucks out there that people are selling or getting rid of because of the price of fuel. Keep in mind that towing is rough on a vehicle; the engine and transmission run hotter and work harder. If the used vehicle is at the end of its life, walk away and keep looking. BTW car dealers will lie about the towing ability to make a sale do your own research.

When it comes to the travel trailer, keep in mind this will be your first but not your last trailer. You will upgrade and that will most likely mean a heavier trailer.

So here is my “been there done that” history. We wanted to move up from tenting to an RV, and were looking at Pop-ups. We knew our 1995 Ford Windstar (POS) would not tow well and wanted a tow vehicle. My buddy’s brother in-law worked at a car dealer and found a 1990 Chevy low-top conversation van. He said it had a 350 V8 and could tow anything. It was nice inside and only had 125000 miles on it. I bought it and had a hitch put on. We went to an RV show and DW found a Hybrid Trailer she like more than a pop-up. I did my research and found I could tow 5000 lbs if I added a tranny cooler (bummer). We did order trailer with a GVWR of 4800 lbs, this was not our first choice in floor plans and was a mistake. So here is what we learned; we could not go very fast up hills even on the interstate we would be so slow we had our 4 way flashers on, the engine temperature would raise very high on an incline. We constantly had to worry about cargo to lighten the load, we always had to plan trip around hills. About 2 years later we needed to replace the van and bought our current Dodge Truck, WOW what a difference it made towing! I would forget the trailer was there, no problems on hills or worrying about cargo. However, the original HTT was smaller than we actually should have bought with 3 kids (should have bought the one I originally wanted but had to pass because I couldn’t tow it) Our younger children slept together on the rear bed and our oldest on the sofa. It became “icky” for my son and daughter to sleep together and 5 years after the purchase it was time to find a different layout. RV depreciate quick and at trade in I was given 50% what I paid for the trailer. And yes the new trailer is slightly bigger by 2½ feet but 2000 lbs heavier.

So the lesson is to “Be Patient” find the right combination tow vehicle and the right trailer for your family. If you settle for less than that just to start RVing you will be making changes and those changes will cost money. Don’t be too scared to act either. Sit down with DW and make a list of what you NEED and what would be nice to have in the trailer. (I would not ask the children). This list is your reality check when you go shopping.

Things to think about: fresh water capacity, black and gray water capacity, bunk length (some are short), storage capacity, ease of reaching the dump handles,

Hope this helps…..

[2012Coleman]

downtheroad wrote:
My advice, from experience ...get a tow vehicle for your next trailer...not the 23 footer you are planning to buy this time. There will be a next one and it will be bigger and heavier.

X2 - this is great advice.

[NWKomfort350]

I never said a half ton is inadequate, I said it will work, but it really comes down to how much cargo u carry . My tt is half ton towable but with a lot less cargo coming along in the bed.

[CKNSLS]

If he is buying the 3/4 ton to upgrade the TT later he is doing the right thing. If not, I don't agree with his decision. There has been more than one post on this forum about how someone purchased a 3/4 ton as a tow vehicle and daily driver and how bad the ride was compared to a 1/2 ton.

I guess just completing my 8,000 plus mile trip across the USA with my 2011 Silverado 1/2 ton and 29 foot 5,500 pound travel trailer I had an inadequate tow vehicle.

I guess someone forgot to tell me.

We didn't even as much as have a flat on the truck or trailer. COMPLETELY trouble free trip.

[NWKomfort350]

IndyCamp wrote:
I would like to see the brand new 23-foot trailer that requires a 3/4 ton or bigger to tow it. That would probably be a badass trailer with all solid surfaces, the best materials, etc. Again, I'm talking about a 2014, not a 2004.

If you listen to some people on this site, you will find yourself buying a semi truck to tow a popup.

Check out the Arctic Fox 22h gvwr of 7500. It is a 2014 24 foot trailer, same weights as my 2004. Its from Northwood Manufacturing.