Is all DEF the same?

[way2roll]

I had been buying BLUE DEF for the past year. "Gold star, premium, blah blah blah..." Recently at the auto parts store the clerk showed me they had FRAM Def. It was literally half the price. So I bout 2 jugs, put them in and have been running it now for over a month. Today at the same auto parts store someone was buying BLUE and I tipped him to my recent find. To my surprise, another clerk said not to buy the FRAM brand that it can cause issues? I was like, wha..? Then why are you selling it? In all my research everything says that DEF is DEF is DEF provided it has the right percentage of urea to water. I mean, it's just atomized into your exhaust to neutralize harmful emissions. So is fancy DEF any better than house brand stuff? What about DEF at the pump - who knows what brand that is.

[Grit_dog]

way2roll wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:
A little more here, copy out of TDR issue 71. I am pretty sure the Napa filter question was during the 1st get era. Issue 71 is about the '99-'00.

It seems that numerous Cummins B series engines equipped with entry level Fram filters suffered piston failures some time back (years 1999, 2000). Upon investigation it was found that the piston undercrown oiling tubes (official term: piston cooling nozzles) were plugged, which caused the pistons to overheat and scuff against the cylinder walls. Cummins found that these oilers were plugged by some of the glue or resins used in the Fram filters, so they sent Fram a bill for those engines. You don’t want to screw with diesel engine manufacturers’ products, because their reputations are very important to them. Fram immediately upgraded the quality of this filter for use on the Cummins B series engine. Kudos to Fram for this one filter. *Editor’s note: Documentation of Fram’s filter follies (follies: as nice a term as I could find) is found in TDR Issue 34, page 105. As a result of their follies, Dodge issued a technical service bulletin (TSB 09-004-01 dated 5/18/01) which informed the service network of the recommended oil filters for the Turbo Diesel engine. The approved manufacturers were (again the date of the TSB is May 2001):

What does any of this have to do with DEF?

Not a dang thing, just useless 20 year old news about oil filters from before DEF was even invented. Lol!

[Cummins12V98]

way2roll wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:
A little more here, copy out of TDR issue 71. I am pretty sure the Napa filter question was during the 1st get era. Issue 71 is about the '99-'00.

It seems that numerous Cummins B series engines equipped with entry level Fram filters suffered piston failures some time back (years 1999, 2000). Upon investigation it was found that the piston undercrown oiling tubes (official term: piston cooling nozzles) were plugged, which caused the pistons to overheat and scuff against the cylinder walls. Cummins found that these oilers were plugged by some of the glue or resins used in the Fram filters, so they sent Fram a bill for those engines. You don’t want to screw with diesel engine manufacturers’ products, because their reputations are very important to them. Fram immediately upgraded the quality of this filter for use on the Cummins B series engine. Kudos to Fram for this one filter. *Editor’s note: Documentation of Fram’s filter follies (follies: as nice a term as I could find) is found in TDR Issue 34, page 105. As a result of their follies, Dodge issued a technical service bulletin (TSB 09-004-01 dated 5/18/01) which informed the service network of the recommended oil filters for the Turbo Diesel engine. The approved manufacturers were (again the date of the TSB is May 2001):

What does any of this have to do with DEF?

Maybe you should be asking openspaces as he said

"I know nothing about DEF. But I love the way FRAM always gets kicked about like everything they make is bad."

[way2roll]

Cummins12V98 wrote:
A little more here, copy out of TDR issue 71. I am pretty sure the Napa filter question was during the 1st get era. Issue 71 is about the '99-'00.

It seems that numerous Cummins B series engines equipped with entry level Fram filters suffered piston failures some time back (years 1999, 2000). Upon investigation it was found that the piston undercrown oiling tubes (official term: piston cooling nozzles) were plugged, which caused the pistons to overheat and scuff against the cylinder walls. Cummins found that these oilers were plugged by some of the glue or resins used in the Fram filters, so they sent Fram a bill for those engines. You don’t want to screw with diesel engine manufacturers’ products, because their reputations are very important to them. Fram immediately upgraded the quality of this filter for use on the Cummins B series engine. Kudos to Fram for this one filter. *Editor’s note: Documentation of Fram’s filter follies (follies: as nice a term as I could find) is found in TDR Issue 34, page 105. As a result of their follies, Dodge issued a technical service bulletin (TSB 09-004-01 dated 5/18/01) which informed the service network of the recommended oil filters for the Turbo Diesel engine. The approved manufacturers were (again the date of the TSB is May 2001):

What does any of this have to do with DEF?

[Cummins12V98]

A little more here, copy out of TDR issue 71. I am pretty sure the Napa filter question was during the 1st get era. Issue 71 is about the '99-'00.

It seems that numerous Cummins B series engines equipped with entry level Fram filters suffered piston failures some time back (years 1999, 2000). Upon investigation it was found that the piston undercrown oiling tubes (official term: piston cooling nozzles) were plugged, which caused the pistons to overheat and scuff against the cylinder walls. Cummins found that these oilers were plugged by some of the glue or resins used in the Fram filters, so they sent Fram a bill for those engines. You don’t want to screw with diesel engine manufacturers’ products, because their reputations are very important to them. Fram immediately upgraded the quality of this filter for use on the Cummins B series engine. Kudos to Fram for this one filter. *Editor’s note: Documentation of Fram’s filter follies (follies: as nice a term as I could find) is found in TDR Issue 34, page 105. As a result of their follies, Dodge issued a technical service bulletin (TSB 09-004-01 dated 5/18/01) which informed the service network of the recommended oil filters for the Turbo Diesel engine. The approved manufacturers were (again the date of the TSB is May 2001):

[Cummins12V98]

Notice what filter brand is NOT on the approved list?????

WIX also bought a few 5.9 Cummins engines.

Bottom line is FRAM is not the same quality as it once was. Simply look at any test where they tear apart the filters.

[Cummins12V98]

Info from Fram telling their side of the story but notice they changed the makeup of the filter.

August 2002 TECHNICAL INFORMATION



It has been brought to our attention that a few DaimlerChrysler service technicians are recommending that the FRAM PH3976 filter not be used on Daimler Chrysler vehicles withthe Cummins 5. 9L Turbo Diesel engine and that use of these filters can cause damage to the engine. Daimler Chrysler has informed us that they released a Technical Service Bulletin to their dealerships communicating a potential contamination issue and recommending the use of Fleetguard manufactured filters.



FRAM has been selling PH3976 filter for this engine application since the engine platform launch and it has maintained an extremely reliable service record. Late in 2000, Cummins and Daimler Chrysler brought to our attention a low incidence failure mode in their Cummins 5. 9L Turbo Diesel engine of the piston cooling nozzle plugging, resulting in engine failure. The plugging was caused by contaminates lodging in the nozzle. The contaminants included metal chips, calcium carbonate, polyethylene, and styrene butadiene that are not associated with filter manufacture, and a neoprene compound, which is used as a sealant on the tapping plate of the filter. There were also several other engine warranty issues determined unrelated to the piston cooling nozzle plugging that were part of the engine failure sample. A small amount of neoprene rubber was used in the FRAM filter as a sealant.



Throughout our investigation with Cummins & DaimlerChrysler on various engine failures, no conclusive evidence was found to assign cause to filters or other contamination sources. However, driven to satisfy our customers, the FRAM engineering team made modifications to the design eliminating the neoprene and expedited development and manufacturing to release a revised filter model number to PH3976A. With the design change on the PH3976A completely removing the use of neoprene, there is absolutely no validity in comments that the Fram filter should not be used for this application or that it may cause engine failures associated with plugged nozzles.



The Honeywell Consumer Products Group warranty policy also protects the consumer if it is determined that a FRAM filter is responsible for damage to an engine due to defects in design or workmanship. This information should be openly conveyed to our customers if they have any concerns or apprehension about using a FRAM filter for this application.



Hmmm...here's the changes they made from the 3976 to the 3976A: HEAVY DUTY INFORMATION BULLETIN FRAM ANNOUNCES PRODUCT IMPROVEMENTS TO THE PH3976 THE PH3976 WILL BE SUPERCEDED TO THE PH3976A Several important product improvements have been made to the PH3976A: · The cartridge has been upgraded to contain a spiral center tube. · The retainer spring is more robust. 23% thicker and stronger material. · A plastic centertube seal has been added between the centertube and the tapping plate. This improvement creates a better seal between the filter cartridge and the tapping plate

[way2roll]

JKJavelin wrote:
It's been well established in the muscle car community that Fram makes about the worst oil filter you can buy.
Can you trust them with anything else?
(FWIW, I buy Baldwin oil filters)
JK

Sine DEF is nothing more than a mixture of urea and water and it has to be certified to sell it, I think so.

[JKJavelin]

It's been well established in the muscle car community that Fram makes about the worst oil filter you can buy.
Can you trust them with anything else?
(FWIW, I buy Baldwin oil filters)
JK

[Cummins12V98]

TravelinDog wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

opnspaces wrote:

way2roll wrote:
To my surprise, another clerk said not to buy the FRAM brand that it can cause issues?

I know nothing about DEF. But I love the way FRAM always gets kicked about like everything they make is bad.

They used to produce quality products once upon a time. Now they rely on their name and make cheap stuff. They bought a lot of Cummins engines in the 90's with their oil filters coming apart and clogging the cooling nozzles.

^^^This is absolute BS^^^

Nothing but repeating what was heard of on the web with ZERO documentation.

Maybe I will post evidence for you.

[Turtle_n_Peeps]

TravlinDog wrote:
^^This is absolute BS^^^

Nothing but repeating what was heard of on the web with ZERO documentation.

Really? Well let me provide you with some documentation.

You might want to read what they say under Fram in this study.

I have personally cut filters apart to see what's inside of them. Lets just say when I came to the Fram it was like: :E:E LOL

Don't want to believe the above? Just go to any Cummins dealer and ask any service manager with gray hair and see what he says about Fram. While you're there ask him about the Cummins TSB about Fram.

[TravelinDog]

Cummins12V98 wrote:

opnspaces wrote:

way2roll wrote:
To my surprise, another clerk said not to buy the FRAM brand that it can cause issues?

I know nothing about DEF. But I love the way FRAM always gets kicked about like everything they make is bad.

They used to produce quality products once upon a time. Now they rely on their name and make cheap stuff. They bought a lot of Cummins engines in the 90's with their oil filters coming apart and clogging the cooling nozzles.

^^^This is absolute BS^^^

Nothing but repeating what was heard of on the web with ZERO documentation.

[Grit_dog]

Cummins12V98 wrote:
Couldn't pass on this GC, paid $17,500 with 2,300 miles in 2020 at one year old.

I wish it used DEF.

Wow, that’s a bargain!
(Only if you hadn’t qualified it as an inheritance….)
I mean, I bought a house half price too. Oh wait, I inherited half a house and bought out my sister’s half…..

[cummins2014]

Cummins12V98 wrote:
Bionic Man said: "$17,500 for a 1 year old GC?"

You are correct I couldn't pass it up! My Dad bought it new in 2019. He drove is very little at 2,300 miles in one year. My Mom had a situation where she slid down between the dash and front seat and had to call EMS. That upset my Dad so he said he was going beck to a PT Cruiser. He tried to sell on CL and people kept questioning the miles and then he did a CarFax. That didn't help as people thought it was a scam. Went to lunch one day and he said I will sell you the GC for 1/2 of what I was advertising it for and I said I need to talk to my wife as she loved her 99 Tahoe. After a test drive for her she agreed it would be stupid to keep the Tahoe with 240k on it even tho it ran great. So I gave him 17,500 cash he passed it to my Sister and he said it was part of our inheritance.

Really is a nice rig, can't believe the power with the V6.

These small motors are amazing , our Ford Escape with the 4 cylinder Eco-Boost is a rocket. Unbelievable the acceleration of a 2.0 liter motor .

[Cummins12V98]

Bionic Man said: "$17,500 for a 1 year old GC?"

You are correct I couldn't pass it up! My Dad bought it new in 2019. He drove is very little at 2,300 miles in one year. My Mom had a situation where she slid down between the dash and front seat and had to call EMS. That upset my Dad so he said he was going beck to a PT Cruiser. He tried to sell on CL and people kept questioning the miles and then he did a CarFax. That didn't help as people thought it was a scam. Went to lunch one day and he said I will sell you the GC for 1/2 of what I was advertising it for and I said I need to talk to my wife as she loved her 99 Tahoe. After a test drive for her she agreed it would be stupid to keep the Tahoe with 240k on it even tho it ran great. So I gave him 17,500 cash he passed it to my Sister and he said it was part of our inheritance.

Really is a nice rig, can't believe the power with the V6.