Is the EV transformation of the market over hyped ?

[Lessmore]

Interesting article about IC gas and Diesel and Electrical Vehicles. This would also include tow vehicles.


EV vehicles market domination over hyped ?

In some ways I think the manufacturers are giving us mixed messages. GM says that they will introduce about 20 new EV vehicles by 2023, yet on the other hand have just introduced a new 3 liter , 6 cylinder diesel for their 1500 truck series and new..or at least revamped 6.6 liter IC gas engine and 6.6 liter IC Diesel engine for their 2020 HD pickup truck line.

So what gives, as we used to say in high school ?

[Reisender]

mich800 wrote:

Reisender wrote:

mich800 wrote:

Reisender wrote:


I guess. But then again. EV’s rarely need a charge station that isn’t at home. We use a commercial charge station maybe half a dozen times per year. Many EV owners have never used a commercial charger even after years of ownership. Can’t really compare the two. Gas or diesel vehicles have to fill up at gas stations. It’s their only choice.

And until they can they will remain a secondary vehicle for the financially well off or commuter vehicles for people that think they can make up the $10-20 thousand premium over an efficient gas/diesel vehicle. And there is nothing wrong with that. But they are a long way off from replacing the ICE vehicle.

Until they can what? I don’t understand.

Have the ability to charge with the same expediency and locations as fuel. And thus allowing it to be the sole mode of transportation for the masses. Like it or not there are still significant logistic impediments for a very large population of vehicle drivers. You assume everyone that owns/drives a car has the ability to charge at home. There are many that need to street park, don't have the service to set up a higher voltage charging station other than 110, and other obstacles for home base charging. That is one of the reasons they are not ready to be the primary vehicle for a very large population of drivers. That doesn't make them not viable. But do not get tunnel vision just because it is a mode of transportation that works for you.

Yes. EV’s are not a panacea for everyone.

[mich800]

Reisender wrote:

mich800 wrote:

Reisender wrote:


I guess. But then again. EV’s rarely need a charge station that isn’t at home. We use a commercial charge station maybe half a dozen times per year. Many EV owners have never used a commercial charger even after years of ownership. Can’t really compare the two. Gas or diesel vehicles have to fill up at gas stations. It’s their only choice.

And until they can they will remain a secondary vehicle for the financially well off or commuter vehicles for people that think they can make up the $10-20 thousand premium over an efficient gas/diesel vehicle. And there is nothing wrong with that. But they are a long way off from replacing the ICE vehicle.

Until they can what? I don’t understand.

Have the ability to charge with the same expediency and locations as fuel. And thus allowing it to be the sole mode of transportation for the masses. Like it or not there are still significant logistic impediments for a very large population of vehicle drivers. You assume everyone that owns/drives a car has the ability to charge at home. There are many that need to street park, don't have the service to set up a higher voltage charging station other than 110, and other obstacles for home base charging. That is one of the reasons they are not ready to be the primary vehicle for a very large population of drivers. That doesn't make them not viable. But do not get tunnel vision just because it is a mode of transportation that works for you.

[Reisender]

Terryallan wrote:

Reisender wrote:

danrclem wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:

Reisender wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:
So what happens when there are more than a couple people charging their EV's? No one seems to think that will ever happen, and they'll be able to just drive right up and plug in. When was the last time you had to wait at a gas station to fill up, and that only takes a couple minutes to do. What happens when the average "fill up" takes 30 minutes?

Oh yeah, I forgot: "They'll be lots more charging stations". Riiiiiight.

I’m probably not understanding what you are getting at. So yes. There will be more charging stations. A new DCFC location opens up about every week or two in our area. Usually BC hydro puts them on the app as “coming soon” and they appear as a wrench. About 6 months later they broadcast a message on the App that they are live. Three years ago there were like 20 DCFC’s in the province. Now there are over 120 with lots more coming. It will be an ongoing thing. Most people charge at home or work but DCFC’s are needed for road trips.

My point is that every one says "Just stop and get a bite to eat or shop a bit until the car is charged up". What if there's 2 people ahead of you, each takes 20-30 minutes, so that's an hour before it's your turn, and now you've spent 1 1/2 hours getting "refueled". What do you do for that amount of time.

I'm sure there are more charging stations, but there are tons more gas stations, and people still wait inline, but the wait time is measured in minutes, not hours. And since this is an RV forum, we are talking about traveling where you may not be able to charge up at home, and the campground may not be set up to do that either. So you "fuel up" on the road. Hence my question about what you do when you can't immediately pull up to the charger.

Exactly. How many vehicles can fill up with fuel at a station that has 12 pumps in one hour. How many vehicles can be charged at a station that has 12 chargers in one hour. I don't know the answer but I bet there's a big difference in numbers.

I guess. But then again. EV’s rarely need a charge station that isn’t at home. We use a commercial charge station maybe half a dozen times per year. Many EV owners have never used a commercial charger even after years of ownership. Can’t really compare the two. Gas or diesel vehicles have to fill up at gas stations. It’s their only choice.

Proving that you can't take the EV out of town, and so, it is useless to the vast majority.

Again. You seem very misinformed. Why would any of the above “prove that you can’t take an ev out of town”. People take EV’s on road trips routinely. It’s just many people don’t do road trips with their cars. For those people they get very little use out of DCFC stations. Probably the best way to get informed is to go for a test drive in something like a model 3 AWD.

[Terryallan]

JRscooby wrote:

Terryallan wrote:


Over hyped, and doing their best to convince you to change your lifestyle to fit their model. EVs are at this time not practical for the vast majority of American people. They may be OK for riding around in the city, or going to the grocery store. But for real traveling, they are pretty much useless.

Vast majority? Not sure about that. From what I see most cars and pickups spend 10+ hours parked at home, drive for less than a hour, spend 8+ parked, drive around a little more, then is parked at home. I would bet 1000 miles a month would cover the "vast majority", and most all spend time parked near a outlet. Now I think it would be great if there where solar panels on the garage, and battery to store the power to charge the car when it got home.

In the morning I will be traveling from the foothills of NC to the Outer Banks of NC. I will be taking the truck as the car cannot carry the gear DW says we need. Now I don't know of a EV that on one charge, will carry all that gear, and run for 8 hours with the AC, and lights on, and has 4x4 to go out on the sand.

Convince me I am wrong.

colliehauler wrote:
When I go North I drive 900 miles in one day only stopping to get fuel and food and use the rest room. Sometimes pulling a RV or boat and hauling a motorcycle.

So which EV will replace my truck? Any EV'S that have a 900 mile range while pulling a 10k pound RV and hauling a 500 pound bike. It would also have to power the A/C and the lights for a few hours of morning driving and evening driving.

It can't have a purchase price over 20k as well since I bought my Diesel used.

I think I will be waiting a while till my parameters are met.

Terry points out he already has one vehicle that will not meet all his needs. And I bet most people that buy new cars have more than one vehicle in the family. With a open mind, I bet many would realize that a EV could replace many of the 2nd cars. And RVers are not a large percentage of car owners. When many travel they catch the bird, then rent a car. For them owning ICE or EV, about same.
I don't think we will ever replace all ICE with EV, but if they get the price down to near the price of a mid level car, I could see 20% or more in 10 years after that, with no change in lifestyle.

Actually I do have 2 vehicles. and they have different rolls. The truck for the Outer Banks, and towing, and the car for other travel. A EV would make our Texas run a 3 or 4 + day ordeal, IF I could find a place to charge it. The car will do it on 3 stops for fuel. There is NOT a EV that can do that with out sitting for hours to charge. So no. A EV will not replace either one of my vehicles. I do more than go to the grocery store a block away.

[Terryallan]

Reisender wrote:

danrclem wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:

Reisender wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:
So what happens when there are more than a couple people charging their EV's? No one seems to think that will ever happen, and they'll be able to just drive right up and plug in. When was the last time you had to wait at a gas station to fill up, and that only takes a couple minutes to do. What happens when the average "fill up" takes 30 minutes?

Oh yeah, I forgot: "They'll be lots more charging stations". Riiiiiight.

I’m probably not understanding what you are getting at. So yes. There will be more charging stations. A new DCFC location opens up about every week or two in our area. Usually BC hydro puts them on the app as “coming soon” and they appear as a wrench. About 6 months later they broadcast a message on the App that they are live. Three years ago there were like 20 DCFC’s in the province. Now there are over 120 with lots more coming. It will be an ongoing thing. Most people charge at home or work but DCFC’s are needed for road trips.

My point is that every one says "Just stop and get a bite to eat or shop a bit until the car is charged up". What if there's 2 people ahead of you, each takes 20-30 minutes, so that's an hour before it's your turn, and now you've spent 1 1/2 hours getting "refueled". What do you do for that amount of time.

I'm sure there are more charging stations, but there are tons more gas stations, and people still wait inline, but the wait time is measured in minutes, not hours. And since this is an RV forum, we are talking about traveling where you may not be able to charge up at home, and the campground may not be set up to do that either. So you "fuel up" on the road. Hence my question about what you do when you can't immediately pull up to the charger.

Exactly. How many vehicles can fill up with fuel at a station that has 12 pumps in one hour. How many vehicles can be charged at a station that has 12 chargers in one hour. I don't know the answer but I bet there's a big difference in numbers.

I guess. But then again. EV’s rarely need a charge station that isn’t at home. We use a commercial charge station maybe half a dozen times per year. Many EV owners have never used a commercial charger even after years of ownership. Can’t really compare the two. Gas or diesel vehicles have to fill up at gas stations. It’s their only choice.

Proving that you can't take the EV out of town, and so, it is useless to the vast majority.

[Terryallan]

JRscooby wrote:

Terryallan wrote:


Over hyped, and doing their best to convince you to change your lifestyle to fit their model. EVs are at this time not practical for the vast majority of American people. They may be OK for riding around in the city, or going to the grocery store. But for real traveling, they are pretty much useless.

Vast majority? Not sure about that. From what I see most cars and pickups spend 10+ hours parked at home, drive for less than a hour, spend 8+ parked, drive around a little more, then is parked at home. I would bet 1000 miles a month would cover the "vast majority", and most all spend time parked near a outlet. Now I think it would be great if there where solar panels on the garage, and battery to store the power to charge the car when it got home.

In the morning I will be traveling from the foothills of NC to the Outer Banks of NC. I will be taking the truck as the car cannot carry the gear DW says we need. Now I don't know of a EV that on one charge, will carry all that gear, and run for 8 hours with the AC, and lights on, and has 4x4 to go out on the sand.

Convince me I am wrong.

colliehauler wrote:
When I go North I drive 900 miles in one day only stopping to get fuel and food and use the rest room. Sometimes pulling a RV or boat and hauling a motorcycle.

So which EV will replace my truck? Any EV'S that have a 900 mile range while pulling a 10k pound RV and hauling a 500 pound bike. It would also have to power the A/C and the lights for a few hours of morning driving and evening driving.

It can't have a purchase price over 20k as well since I bought my Diesel used.

I think I will be waiting a while till my parameters are met.

Terry points out he already has one vehicle that will not meet all his needs. And I bet most people that buy new cars have more than one vehicle in the family. With a open mind, I bet many would realize that a EV could replace many of the 2nd cars. And RVers are not a large percentage of car owners. When many travel they catch the bird, then rent a car. For them owning ICE or EV, about same.
I don't think we will ever replace all ICE with EV, but if they get the price down to near the price of a mid level car, I could see 20% or more in 10 years after that, with no change in lifestyle.

Actually I do have 2 vehicles. and they have different rolls. The truck for the Outer Banks, and towing, and the car for other travel. A EV would make our Texas run a 3 or 4 + day ordeal, IF I could find a place to charge it. The car will do it on 3 stops for fuel. There is NOT a EV that can do that with out sitting for hours to charge. So no. A EV will not replace either one of my vehicles. I do more than go to the grocery store a block away.

[Reisender]

mich800 wrote:

Reisender wrote:


I guess. But then again. EV’s rarely need a charge station that isn’t at home. We use a commercial charge station maybe half a dozen times per year. Many EV owners have never used a commercial charger even after years of ownership. Can’t really compare the two. Gas or diesel vehicles have to fill up at gas stations. It’s their only choice.

And until they can they will remain a secondary vehicle for the financially well off or commuter vehicles for people that think they can make up the $10-20 thousand premium over an efficient gas/diesel vehicle. And there is nothing wrong with that. But they are a long way off from replacing the ICE vehicle.

Until they can what? I don’t understand.

[mich800]

Reisender wrote:


I guess. But then again. EV’s rarely need a charge station that isn’t at home. We use a commercial charge station maybe half a dozen times per year. Many EV owners have never used a commercial charger even after years of ownership. Can’t really compare the two. Gas or diesel vehicles have to fill up at gas stations. It’s their only choice.

And until they can they will remain a secondary vehicle for the financially well off or commuter vehicles for people that think they can make up the $10-20 thousand premium over an efficient gas/diesel vehicle. And there is nothing wrong with that. But they are a long way off from replacing the ICE vehicle.

[Reisender]

danrclem wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:

Reisender wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:
So what happens when there are more than a couple people charging their EV's? No one seems to think that will ever happen, and they'll be able to just drive right up and plug in. When was the last time you had to wait at a gas station to fill up, and that only takes a couple minutes to do. What happens when the average "fill up" takes 30 minutes?

Oh yeah, I forgot: "They'll be lots more charging stations". Riiiiiight.

I’m probably not understanding what you are getting at. So yes. There will be more charging stations. A new DCFC location opens up about every week or two in our area. Usually BC hydro puts them on the app as “coming soon” and they appear as a wrench. About 6 months later they broadcast a message on the App that they are live. Three years ago there were like 20 DCFC’s in the province. Now there are over 120 with lots more coming. It will be an ongoing thing. Most people charge at home or work but DCFC’s are needed for road trips.

My point is that every one says "Just stop and get a bite to eat or shop a bit until the car is charged up". What if there's 2 people ahead of you, each takes 20-30 minutes, so that's an hour before it's your turn, and now you've spent 1 1/2 hours getting "refueled". What do you do for that amount of time.

I'm sure there are more charging stations, but there are tons more gas stations, and people still wait inline, but the wait time is measured in minutes, not hours. And since this is an RV forum, we are talking about traveling where you may not be able to charge up at home, and the campground may not be set up to do that either. So you "fuel up" on the road. Hence my question about what you do when you can't immediately pull up to the charger.

Exactly. How many vehicles can fill up with fuel at a station that has 12 pumps in one hour. How many vehicles can be charged at a station that has 12 chargers in one hour. I don't know the answer but I bet there's a big difference in numbers.

I guess. But then again. EV’s rarely need a charge station that isn’t at home. We use a commercial charge station maybe half a dozen times per year. Many EV owners have never used a commercial charger even after years of ownership. Can’t really compare the two. Gas or diesel vehicles have to fill up at gas stations. It’s their only choice.

[danrclem]

fj12ryder wrote:

Reisender wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:
So what happens when there are more than a couple people charging their EV's? No one seems to think that will ever happen, and they'll be able to just drive right up and plug in. When was the last time you had to wait at a gas station to fill up, and that only takes a couple minutes to do. What happens when the average "fill up" takes 30 minutes?

Oh yeah, I forgot: "They'll be lots more charging stations". Riiiiiight.

I’m probably not understanding what you are getting at. So yes. There will be more charging stations. A new DCFC location opens up about every week or two in our area. Usually BC hydro puts them on the app as “coming soon” and they appear as a wrench. About 6 months later they broadcast a message on the App that they are live. Three years ago there were like 20 DCFC’s in the province. Now there are over 120 with lots more coming. It will be an ongoing thing. Most people charge at home or work but DCFC’s are needed for road trips.

My point is that every one says "Just stop and get a bite to eat or shop a bit until the car is charged up". What if there's 2 people ahead of you, each takes 20-30 minutes, so that's an hour before it's your turn, and now you've spent 1 1/2 hours getting "refueled". What do you do for that amount of time.

I'm sure there are more charging stations, but there are tons more gas stations, and people still wait inline, but the wait time is measured in minutes, not hours. And since this is an RV forum, we are talking about traveling where you may not be able to charge up at home, and the campground may not be set up to do that either. So you "fuel up" on the road. Hence my question about what you do when you can't immediately pull up to the charger.

Exactly. How many vehicles can fill up with fuel at a station that has 12 pumps in one hour. How many vehicles can be charged at a station that has 12 chargers in one hour. I don't know the answer but I bet there's a big difference in numbers.

[JRscooby]

fj12ryder wrote:
My point is that every one says "Just stop and get a bite to eat or shop a bit until the car is charged up". What if there's 2 people ahead of you, each takes 20-30 minutes, so that's an hour before it's your turn, and now you've spent 1 1/2 hours getting "refueled". What do you do for that amount of time.

I'm sure there are more charging stations, but there are tons more gas stations, and people still wait inline, but the wait time is measured in minutes, not hours. And since this is an RV forum, we are talking about traveling where you may not be able to charge up at home, and the campground may not be set up to do that either. So you "fuel up" on the road. Hence my question about what you do when you can't immediately pull up to the charger.

I agree, decades if ever, before electric would match ICE for long distance travel.But you look south on I 29 at any time of the day. A large percentage of the cars you see never leave the metro area, and the ones that do don't do often.
When I was a kid mother would send a postcard to her grandfather to let him know what day I would ride the train to Kingston, so he could pick me up. (When I got to house call home, collect person to person to myself. Mom refuse call, but know I made it.) Been a long time since passenger trains ran that way. But for years it was it has nothing to make the drive. Now a E car could make it with no issue other than maybe need a charge before start back.

[Reisender]

fj12ryder wrote:

Reisender wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:
So what happens when there are more than a couple people charging their EV's? No one seems to think that will ever happen, and they'll be able to just drive right up and plug in. When was the last time you had to wait at a gas station to fill up, and that only takes a couple minutes to do. What happens when the average "fill up" takes 30 minutes?

Oh yeah, I forgot: "They'll be lots more charging stations". Riiiiiight.

I’m probably not understanding what you are getting at. So yes. There will be more charging stations. A new DCFC location opens up about every week or two in our area. Usually BC hydro puts them on the app as “coming soon” and they appear as a wrench. About 6 months later they broadcast a message on the App that they are live. Three years ago there were like 20 DCFC’s in the province. Now there are over 120 with lots more coming. It will be an ongoing thing. Most people charge at home or work but DCFC’s are needed for road trips.

My point is that every one says "Just stop and get a bite to eat or shop a bit until the car is charged up". What if there's 2 people ahead of you, each takes 20-30 minutes, so that's an hour before it's your turn, and now you've spent 1 1/2 hours getting "refueled". What do you do for that amount of time.

I'm sure there are more charging stations, but there are tons more gas stations, and people still wait inline, but the wait time is measured in minutes, not hours. And since this is an RV forum, we are talking about traveling where you may not be able to charge up at home, and the campground may not be set up to do that either. So you "fuel up" on the road. Hence my question about what you do when you can't immediately pull up to the charger.

Yah for sure it’s a real thing. We personally have never had to wait but I’m sure people do. I have heard of Tesla owners on long weekends having to wait for a stall. Then again the daily line up at a Costco is usually 4 cars deep so some people are probably ok with a little wait. Many of the first generation DCFC stalls in our province are single stall. As the uptake of electric happens they will need to be expanded. A lot were sized for 4 stalls but a few we have seen would have difficulty expanding due to lack of room. The one that just opened up about 20 minutes away is a two stall with room for 4. It is a 200 KW unit. Literally 4 times as fast as the first generation. Then again our first generation car only accepts 50 KW so it is kinda wasted on us. Most new cars are st least 100 kW with Tesla V3 now 200 KW. It will continue to evolve. We don’t use DCFC much. Maybe half dozen times a year.

[fj12ryder]

Reisender wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:
So what happens when there are more than a couple people charging their EV's? No one seems to think that will ever happen, and they'll be able to just drive right up and plug in. When was the last time you had to wait at a gas station to fill up, and that only takes a couple minutes to do. What happens when the average "fill up" takes 30 minutes?

Oh yeah, I forgot: "They'll be lots more charging stations". Riiiiiight.

I’m probably not understanding what you are getting at. So yes. There will be more charging stations. A new DCFC location opens up about every week or two in our area. Usually BC hydro puts them on the app as “coming soon” and they appear as a wrench. About 6 months later they broadcast a message on the App that they are live. Three years ago there were like 20 DCFC’s in the province. Now there are over 120 with lots more coming. It will be an ongoing thing. Most people charge at home or work but DCFC’s are needed for road trips.

My point is that every one says "Just stop and get a bite to eat or shop a bit until the car is charged up". What if there's 2 people ahead of you, each takes 20-30 minutes, so that's an hour before it's your turn, and now you've spent 1 1/2 hours getting "refueled". What do you do for that amount of time.

I'm sure there are more charging stations, but there are tons more gas stations, and people still wait inline, but the wait time is measured in minutes, not hours. And since this is an RV forum, we are talking about traveling where you may not be able to charge up at home, and the campground may not be set up to do that either. So you "fuel up" on the road. Hence my question about what you do when you can't immediately pull up to the charger.

[mich800]

Groover wrote:

Reisender wrote:

mich800 wrote:

pianotuna wrote:
A new range record. 2,781km (1,728mi) in 24 hours in a Tesla Model 3 Long Range AWD

??? link to story. What highway did they manage 70+ mph including charge time.

Germany. Autobahns. Much of the time they were at 170 kmh (105 miles) per hour but the average was just over 110 kph (70 mph). The story kind of emphasizes what most of us driving EV’s know. Charge while you are eating lunch, walking the dog, pee break etc. No time lost to charging.

V3 Superchargers are a game changer though. Quick.

https://electrek.co/2019/07/05/tesla-youtuber-breaks-24-hour-electric-car-distance-record/

He drove at about 105mph and roughly doubled the amount of energy needed.
1740 miles at 105 mph means about 17 hours driving and about 7 hours recharging.
Driving at normal speeds would have extended his range on the initial charge and halved the amount of time for additional juice beyond that, reducing his stopped time down to less than 3 hours. Probably more like 2 1/2.
Driving 1740 miles would be at least two full days for me, allowing at least one, if not two overnight charges. So actual time spent waiting for a charge would be maybe and hour and a half.

Not unreasonable at all. And that was with currently available technology. I realize that these charging stations are not readily well distributed yet but the tech is here now and just needs to be replicated. Charge rates are limited in proportion to battery size and trucks will have bigger batteries so with the right chargers should be able to achieve similar results. And with gas station/restaurant combos becoming common on highways you could do that charging while stopped for food.

So all they did is confirm electric requires much more downtime than gas/diesel over that distance. Am I missing something?

[stsmark]

Interesting he used the Ionity charging network as its currently faster than Tesla’s. Something else is wonky in the article he said normally the trip would have cost 300 Euros in charging. The company charges a flat 8 Euro rate per session. That’s 37 stops. Plus the charge company sponsored him. I’d like to hear the details of the trip power wise.