It might begin very soon

[4x4ord]

Click

[pnichols]

pnichols wrote:
Well ... as an example to all complex-technology trusters out there, here's a harmless failure mode that happened last night to my daughter's fairly modern "slightly high tech" Lexus SUV:

It was just sitting in the driveway in the dark outside of her home when an electrical equipment failure began. Every 2-3 minutes it's rear hatch would open and the interior lights would come on. After a few seconds the hatch would close and the lights would go out. This strange failure cycle lasted who knows how long into the night, as she had to get some sleep so she could use a borrowed vehicle to go into work today.

Self-driving technology only belongs in freight trains - not in airplanes or public road vehicles. Not all gadgets that work for the good of some work for the good of all.

Here's an addition to my post above: I just finished research on my daughter's "mysterious self-opening" rear hatch problem on her Lexus SUV. It appears that many others have had this happen, and on other vehicle models too, and of course on garage door openers.

Soooo ... I guess we (not me) should trust the way, way, way more complex self-driving systems eventually deployed in everyday run-around vehicles all over the world? I think not.

[deltabravo]

rhagfo wrote:
I worked in the IT sector also, it isn't only hardware, but the software that runs on it.
Too many time in the rush to deploy new programs, there were always a "Work Around" or a situation that wasn't tested.

Yep. Boeing 737 Max comes to mind

[Hammerhead]

Trains always have the right of way and don’t have to do things like changing lanes.

blt2ski wrote:
How many trains are running around seattle on remote control, no drivers. Granted usually going less than 25mph......but heavier, creating more potential damage......
Probably not a big deal, then again........

marty

[rhagfo]

Bird Freak wrote:
How will they refuel?

They will just need to go to Oregon or new Jersey! :B

[time2roll]

Between weather reports and live traffic I think the automated truck will know well in advance to pull over. If the pass is that bad periodically surely there is a chain-up area to just pull off. Human nature may be inclined to press on.

Of course there is always the possibility to get caught in something sudden and unexpected such as the freezing rain today in TX. Would the automated truck avoid the crash, I don't know, but I doubt it would do worse than the other drivers.

[ksss]

rlw999 wrote:

Groover wrote:

ksss wrote:
I would be curious how automation would deal with icy roads and heavy snow fall when the edges of the road cant be identified or sensors packed with snow and ice. I am sure they have a solution for this, but at times when you cant see the road and gps may not have road exactly laid out the way that it physically is, not sure how they automate that.

How should a human respond? Program in that response.
A self driving truck may have an option that a human doesn't: Stop and wait it out. After all the computer isn't going to freeze to death while it waits.

And they have another option similar to what many humans do when the road is snowed over -- wait for a snowplow, then form a train behind it, each driverless vehicle watching the one in front of it to figure out where the lane is. If one vehicle gets into trouble (runs off the road, gets stuck on a patch of ice, whatever), it can tell everyone behind it to stop.

Tesla autopilot already does some of this -- it tracks the car in front to help with lanekeeping, but I don't know if it does that on snowy roads where there are no lane lines visible at all.

I am not sure where the opportunity is to stop a tractor trailer on mountain roads in the West in a white out. Stop right in the roadway rising up to mountain pass? White out conditions would make for interesting computer generated decisions. I don't think a computers decisions would be the same as a human driver would make. Not that humans always make the right decisions either in similar conditions, but auto drive in those conditions may make worse decisions. I am not against the concept, I would just like to know or see how these trucks manage other than normal driving conditions.

[Groover]

pnichols wrote:
Well ... as an example to all complex-technology trusters out there, here's a harmless failure mode that happened last night to my daughter's fairly modern "slightly high tech" Lexus SUV:

It was just sitting in the driveway in the dark outside of her home when an electrical equipment failure began. Every 2-3 minutes it's rear hatch would open and the interior lights would come on. After a few seconds the hatch would close and the lights would go out. This strange failure cycle lasted who knows how long into the night, as she had to get some sleep so she could use a borrowed vehicle to go into work today.

Self-driving technology only belongs in freight trains - not in airplanes or public road vehicles. Not all gadgets that work for the good of some work for the good of all.

It wasn't that many years ago that I refused to have a vehicle with power windows because they were so failure prone and expensive to fix. Now every vehicle that I have but one old beater pickup has them with no failures. Three of those have well over 100,000 miles on them. I could list several other technologies that have become reliable and affordable during that time frame. The benefits of self driving far exceed the benefits of power windows. Talk to Tesla drivers and you may find that self driving is not as new or unproven as you think.

New planes and larger boats without autopilot are getting few and far between. Almost all commercial flights are at least partially flown by autopilot.

[pnichols]

Well ... as an example to all complex-technology trusters out there, here's a harmless failure mode that happened last night to my daughter's fairly modern "slightly high tech" Lexus SUV:

It was just sitting in the driveway in the dark outside of her home when an electrical equipment failure began. Every 2-3 minutes it's rear hatch would open and the interior lights would come on. After a few seconds the hatch would close and the lights would go out. This strange failure cycle lasted who knows how long into the night, as she had to get some sleep so she could use a borrowed vehicle to go into work today.

Self-driving technology only belongs in freight trains - not in airplanes or public road vehicles. Not all gadgets that work for the good of some work for the good of all.

[Reisender]

rlw999 wrote:

Groover wrote:

ksss wrote:
I would be curious how automation would deal with icy roads and heavy snow fall when the edges of the road cant be identified or sensors packed with snow and ice. I am sure they have a solution for this, but at times when you cant see the road and gps may not have road exactly laid out the way that it physically is, not sure how they automate that.

How should a human respond? Program in that response.
A self driving truck may have an option that a human doesn't: Stop and wait it out. After all the computer isn't going to freeze to death while it waits.

And they have another option similar to what many humans do when the road is snowed over -- wait for a snowplow, then form a train behind it, each driverless vehicle watching the one in front of it to figure out where the lane is. If one vehicle gets into trouble (runs off the road, gets stuck on a patch of ice, whatever), it can tell everyone behind it to stop.

Tesla autopilot already does some of this -- it tracks the car in front to help with lanekeeping, but I don't know if it does that on snowy roads where there are no lane lines visible at all.

It definetly keeps track of the vehicles in front but on snowy roads its common that the autopilot is disabled, at least for us. I know the one sensor on the front is positioned to look under the vehicle immediately in front to see the vehicle in front of that. It works as it shows up the visualization in the car.

[rlw999]

Groover wrote:

ksss wrote:
I would be curious how automation would deal with icy roads and heavy snow fall when the edges of the road cant be identified or sensors packed with snow and ice. I am sure they have a solution for this, but at times when you cant see the road and gps may not have road exactly laid out the way that it physically is, not sure how they automate that.

How should a human respond? Program in that response.
A self driving truck may have an option that a human doesn't: Stop and wait it out. After all the computer isn't going to freeze to death while it waits.

And they have another option similar to what many humans do when the road is snowed over -- wait for a snowplow, then form a train behind it, each driverless vehicle watching the one in front of it to figure out where the lane is. If one vehicle gets into trouble (runs off the road, gets stuck on a patch of ice, whatever), it can tell everyone behind it to stop.

Tesla autopilot already does some of this -- it tracks the car in front to help with lanekeeping, but I don't know if it does that on snowy roads where there are no lane lines visible at all.

[Groover]

ksss wrote:
I would be curious how automation would deal with icy roads and heavy snow fall when the edges of the road cant be identified or sensors packed with snow and ice. I am sure they have a solution for this, but at times when you cant see the road and gps may not have road exactly laid out the way that it physically is, not sure how they automate that.

How should a human respond? Program in that response.
A self driving truck may have an option that a human doesn't: Stop and wait it out. After all the computer isn't going to freeze to death while it waits.

[Reisender]

ksss wrote:
I would be curious how automation would deal with icy roads and heavy snow fall when the edges of the road cant be identified or sensors packed with snow and ice. I am sure they have a solution for this, but at times when you cant see the road and gps may not have road exactly laid out the way that it physically is, not sure how they automate that.

I can jump in here with my experiences with our Tesla. Quite simply if the Tesla loses reference because of snow or poor lines or whatever it just gives up, it lets the driver know to take over immediately and all is well. It’s a level 2 system so not a problem as the driver is supposed to constantly supervise and have a hand on the wheel. By the book FSD shouldn’t be used on gravel roads or snow covered roads but i have seen you tube vehicles of people doing that. As level 3 and level 4 systems show up it will have to improve.

There are lots of videos out there showing how the new FSD video deals with unexpected situations like ups vans in the middle of the street. The car realizes there is a stopped vehicle in the street, it will creep out, check for oncoming traffic and go slowly around in a creepily human fashion.

Times are a changing.

[Reisender]

Grover your last sentence says it all. There are brain dead people who work hard at finding cheats to overcome Tesla’s safety features of insuring you are awake and that you have a hand on the wheel. Hanging everything from water bottles and wrist weights, even oranges off the steering wheel so they can text while driving or whatever. And they work. A Tesla will happily drive for hours on the highway with no intervention and no supervision...even though it was not designed to do so. And then something goes wrong, there’s an accident and every body wants to blame Tesla. This will always happen and there will always be dumb people.

The Tesla system works kind of cool. People have been falling asleep at the wheel since cars have existed. If you have autopilot on (FSD not needed) and you fall asleep at the wheel the car will wait for an input on the wheel from you. If you don’t touch the wheel for x amount of time, it will start to nag you with visual and audible cues. If you still don’t respond it will pull over to the side of the road in a controlled manner and turn on the hazards.

Cool.

[ksss]

I would be curious how automation would deal with icy roads and heavy snow fall when the edges of the road cant be identified or sensors packed with snow and ice. I am sure they have a solution for this, but at times when you cant see the road and gps may not have road exactly laid out the way that it physically is, not sure how they automate that.