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LiFePO4 Converter Change?

Ranger_Tim
Explorer
Explorer
I just want to switch from lead acid to lithium, not upgrade wires and everything else. Finding a new replacement board for my WF-8955PEC seems to be complicated. Straight 14.6V continuous boost single phase vs. 14.6 boost and 13.4 idle dual phase approach, some have a switch for LA/Li, others are auto sensing, still others are Lithium only. Huge range of prices indicates there may be some poor quality fake/unauthorized parts out there. I donโ€™t want to replace the entire thing, just the converter section.

Reading forum posts from many sites usually ends in discussions that go into the weeds quickly. Can anyone cut through it and keep it simple?
Ranger Tim
2006 F-350 Super Crew King Ranch SRW Bulletproofed
2016 Wolf Creek 840
Upper and Lower StableLoads
50 REPLIES 50

3_tons
Explorer III
Explorer III
Ranger Tim wrote:
Most of its life the camper is plugged in at home..


Well, since it spends much of itโ€™s life plugged in, you might then consider doing what I and many others with LFPโ€™s doโ€ฆ

1) Simply add an automotive โ€˜side-postโ€™ battery knife style disconnect switch to the LFPโ€™s two terminals (the most accessible), so that the battery can hibernate isolated when not in useโ€ฆOnce isolated, the self-discharge rate for LFPโ€™s is practically non-existent, say over a 6 month period. Hibernation should be done with the battery at about 50-60โ€™ish% state of charge (SOC), this to keep LFP ions in appropriate equilibriumโ€ฆ

2) To best determine โ€˜accurateโ€™ SOCโ€™s with LFPโ€™s (otherwise somewhat problematic), youโ€™ll want a good LFP compatible, shunt based SOC meter, like Victronโ€™s โ€˜smart-shuntโ€™ with Bluetooth (simply installs in NEG battery cable)โ€ฆReads like a gas gauge and provides SOC, volts, amps and historyโ€ฆ

3) With battery disconnect during these periods of โ€˜non-useโ€™, your existing on-board converter-charger (via shore power) will take over and continue to supply 12v power to the camperโ€ฆ

4) When restoring your batteries back to a full charge, most any OEM charger thatโ€™ll output 14.X volts (not to exceed 14.6v) will do - however, the key here is, once the batteries are fully charged and *balanced (say, another 15-20 mins after achieving 100% SOCโ€ฆ), discontinue charging (this, in the interest of battery longevity), by shutting off your generator (or if shore power, via on-board converter-chargerโ€™s breaker), thereafter running off battery powerโ€ฆ

* Note, the cell balancing cycle can be observed via Bluetooth per the slight cycling of amps and volts until such cycling stops (see item 2).

5) Unlike wet-cells, thereโ€™s no need to โ€˜routinelyโ€™ restore LFPโ€™s back to a 100% FULL chargeโ€ฆ85-95% is quite sufficient thanks to LFPโ€™s far deeper DOD (depth of discharge) - But to aid with battery longevity, youโ€™ll only want to do a FULL charge occasionally, and for just two reasons:

a) Periodic cell re-balancing (this process begins after achieving 100% FULL Charge).

b) Meter resync (concurrent with a full charge) - to resolve cumulative SOC meter drift which naturally develops over a timeโ€ฆ

6) At this point you might sense (as with other type batteries) that solar harvest will help minimize the frequency for having to run your generator, as does LFPโ€™s deeper DODโ€ฆ

3 tons

Ranger_Tim
Explorer
Explorer
Most of its life the camper is plugged in at home. The camping generator is a Honda 2200. My two Centennial group 27 batteries are from 2016 and are still okay, but will probably go south this spring, hence the interest in replacements. I have enjoyed the spirited debate.
Ranger Tim
2006 F-350 Super Crew King Ranch SRW Bulletproofed
2016 Wolf Creek 840
Upper and Lower StableLoads

3_tons
Explorer III
Explorer III
โ€œPF only matters for speed charging from a smallish generatorโ€

BINGO, and any claims as to the actual numbers must take into account current and voltage (as user adjusted on the powermac device), thus lacking any additional information, an objective comparison cannot be madeโ€ฆEither way, the difference (if any - who can say?) as applied to this particular application is how Statisticians can make Astrologers look good (e.g. mostly marketing)โ€ฆOn the other hand, where Pf is paramount is with a highly inductive load like a motor, where voltage typically lags behind current (numerically decreasing the purported Pf)โ€ฆ

Bottom line, If charging via any generator, it pays to match the size of the various components - fir example, this would include microwave oven wattage..

Also this single point issue overlooks entirely the efficiency gained (while charging LFPโ€ฆ) when comparing to FWCโ€™s higher internal resistance and heat producing absorption stage, meaning less actual generator run time and fuel consumptionโ€ฆ

3 tons

time2roll
Nomad
Nomad
3 tons wrote:

Please elucidate to us why โ€˜claims of Pfโ€™ should be a part if this discussion rather than just โ€˜anotherโ€™ predictable trollโ€ฆ

3 tons
PF only matters for speed charging from a smallish generator. Typical RV converter need 30% additional available power due to the PF. Honda 1000 will only put about 30-35 amps into the battery but might go 40-45 with a power factor corrected charger such as Meanwell NPB series.

Same as a Honda 2000 will go about 70 max amps with a standard converter.

OP would need to post the generator and converter to get best answers to maximize charging power.

srschang
Nomad
Nomad
Yep, I learned my lesson on lithium charging a few years ago. Bought a couple Battleborn 100ah batteries and a PD 4645 Lithium charger for our TC. After doing the research I should have done ahead of time, I discovered the "Lithium" Progressive Dynamics charger meant that it charged at 14.6V instead of 13.6V for the "Non Lithium" charger. It never dropped from 14.6V. So the charger sits in a box in the basement, I replaced it with a WFCO 8950L2, which charges at 14.6v for 4 hours, then drops to 13.6v. Still a bit higher than I'd like, because the charged batteries sit at 13.3v when not charging, but a lot better than constant 14.6V.


2022 Ram 3500 Dually Crewcab Longbed Cummins, 2019 Northstar 12 STC

Grit_dog
Navigator
Navigator
And to think, in 35 years of cars, trucks, construction equipment, home and garden equipment, power sports toys, boats AND โ€œonlyโ€ 3 RVs, Iโ€™ve never found keeping batteries alive and charged to be near the challenge or debate or I suppose, fascination, that some of yโ€™all do.
In fact, aside from the first WFCO I had in the last camper, I donโ€™t recall having any charger/converter that wasnโ€™t just plug n play and did its job.
And the boat batteries are from 2014, still good.
Some things sit on maintainers all off season, some donโ€™t. Some get forgot sometimes, lol.
Truck, just replaced the 2015 dated batteries a couple months ago. 2015 car battery and the old Jeep idk maybe 2012, mower 2017, wheeler, 2016 maybe. Idk I canโ€™t see where the magic is in keeping up batteriesโ€ฆ.
2016 Ram 2500, MotorOps.ca EFIlive tuned, 5โ€ turbo back, 6" lift on 37s
2017 Heartland Torque T29 - Sold.
Couple of Arctic Fox TCs - Sold

3_tons
Explorer III
Explorer III
I believe otrfun has nailed it!

My sense is these purported LFP chargers are mostly meant to satisfy the RV OEM marketโ€™s LFP upgrade option $$โ€ฆfor plug & play folks who don't want to be informed with a deeper understanding LFP, or their chargingโ€ฆ

Personally, I go with a conventional PD with tethered Charge Wizard option (because, why not charge at 14..4v??) while attending the last 20 or so minutes of charge cycle (cell balancing followed by charger shutdown), especially considering how relatively infrequent a full charge with LFP is really neededโ€ฆ

3 tons

3_tons
Explorer III
Explorer III
PTโ€™s own โ€˜idealโ€™ one size fits all system (advocating for most others) would likely be a SiO2 battery and a Powermax, the Holy Grail parameters being -45d temperatures and Pfโ€ฆA โ€˜textbook caseโ€™ for morning after sickness :Eโ€ฆJMO

3 tons

otrfun
Explorer II
Explorer II
time2roll wrote:
I would not want to float an LFP above 13.4 volts. 13.2 - 13.3 is better. I don't know anyone that recommends holding LFP long term at 100% charged.

14.6 is also higher than necessary and is more likely to cause a fault in some lower cost brands from CN that many look at.

This generally gives the standard PD or the PowerMax with adjustable voltage an advantage. Both drop to 13.2 volts for long term.

That is my opinion. Good luck to the OP.
Very much agree, time2roll.

Some may find it surprising, but a 3-stage *lead-cell* 13.2v/13.6v/14.4v converter probably does the best job of accommodating the voltages you've mentioned. IMO, it's arguably one of the better general-purpose, non-programmable charging platforms for a lifepo4 (as long as no charge/equalization mode exceeds 14.6v). Even has the advantage of a 13.2v float and more conservative 14.4v bulk vs. some of the 2-stage 13.6v/14.6v Lithium/Lifepo4 Approved converters.

Claims that a given converter/charger is "Lithium/Lifepo4 Approved" are simply marketing ploys which tell you absolutely nothing about how well or safely it will charge and maintain your lifepo4 battery. The number of stages, and the voltage used by a converter to support each of these stages, ultimately determines how well a given converter will properly maintain (and charge) a lifepo4 battery.

Last, but not least . . . there will always be some debate about the best float/absorption/bulk voltages to use with a multi-stage converter to best charge a lifepo4. However, you'd be hard-pressed to find much debate about the best one, single voltage to both float and bulk charge a lifepo4. Why? Because such a voltage simply does not exist. This is why a single-stage (single/one voltage) 14.6v converter (even though Lithium/Lifepo4 Approved) is the worst possible charging platform for a lifepo4.

3_tons
Explorer III
Explorer III
pianotuna wrote:
StirCrazy wrote:
pianotuna wrote:
Power factor on PD units is 0.7.

Power factor on powermax is 0.85. (they call it efficiency)

https://www.boatandrvaccessories.com/en-ca/products/powermax-pm3-75-12-volt-75-amp-converter-charger


you couldn't even link to one that is a LI converter eh haha



You couldn't be bothered to accurately check the power factor but rather just assumed because others complained that the Power Max was worse than the PD. Apparently the exact opposite is true.


Please elucidate to us why โ€˜claims of Pfโ€™ should be a part if this discussion rather than just โ€˜anotherโ€™ predictable trollโ€ฆ

3 tons

pianotuna
Nomad III
Nomad III
StirCrazy wrote:
pianotuna wrote:
Power factor on PD units is 0.7.

Power factor on powermax is 0.85. (they call it efficiency)

https://www.boatandrvaccessories.com/en-ca/products/powermax-pm3-75-12-volt-75-amp-converter-charger


you couldn't even link to one that is a LI converter eh haha



You couldn't be bothered to accurately check the power factor but rather just assumed because others complained that the Power Max was worse than the PD. Apparently the exact opposite is true.
Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp-hours of Telcom jars, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

3_tons
Explorer III
Explorer III
Application mattersโ€ฆPower factor becomes relevant on things like electric motors or inverters, but becomes more of a โ€˜shiny objectโ€™ distraction (wholesale claims) โ€˜when talkingโ€™ about chargers - As with certain SiO2 battery claims, skepticism paysโ€ฆ

3 tons

StirCrazy
Moderator
Moderator
time2roll wrote:
3 tons wrote:
snip.... the charger reverts back to and holds at 13.6vโ€ฆCharger stays at 13.6v to again repeat the 14.6v charging cycle in 8 days, or presumably triggered upon reaching a voltage somewhat lower than 13.6vโ€ฆ
I would not want to float an LFP above 13.4 volts. 13.2 - 13.3 is better. I don't know anyone that recommends holding LFP long term at 100% charged.

14.6 is also higher than necessary and is more likely to cause a fault in some lower cost brands from CN that many look at.

This generally gives the standard PD or the PowerMax with adjustable voltage an advantage. Both drop to 13.2 volts for long term.

That is my opinion. Good luck to the OP.


I am not sure I agree with 8 days being considered "Long Term" , and every cell I have looked at uses the 14.6 as the recommended voltage for charging to 100%. I think the 13.6 has come about, as after a rest period off the charge that is considered a 100% resting voltage for the purpose of capacity checking, and like you said should be a max.

when I am camping I set the voltages for 13.3 which during the day will charge back up to 90% and hold so I don't use the two stage at that point but once a week I do use the profile that will charge to 13.9, hold for 1 hour as My BMS will start equalizing at 13.6V. I then have it drop to 13.3. I do have to change back to the normal one in the app but its easy.

as far as a two stage converter..

I don't know if I even need a dual stage converter I think because of my ability to bluetooth into my battery and set charge limits, discharge limits and charge start limits I could just plug it into a normal single stage charger, but I would have to test that, or maybe someone here has and can let us know. right now, since I installed my LFP batteries I don't plug it in at home.. just the solar is hooked up as I don't have a LFP compatible converter... well, it was supposed to be, but it is old stock they set me which doesn't have that function. I'll have to try messing around with that and do some testing... once I get a converter.
2014 F350 6.7 Platinum
2016 Cougar 330RBK
1991 Slumberqueen WS100

StirCrazy
Moderator
Moderator
pianotuna wrote:
Power factor on PD units is 0.7.

Power factor on powermax is 0.85. (they call it efficiency)

https://www.boatandrvaccessories.com/en-ca/products/powermax-pm3-75-12-volt-75-amp-converter-charger


you couldn't even link to one that is a LI converter eh haha
2014 F350 6.7 Platinum
2016 Cougar 330RBK
1991 Slumberqueen WS100