Newbie need help with purchase decision

[95jersey]

I am brand new camper looking at my local dealers for 18-22ft travel trailers. There are quite a few options and floor plans to choose. Within my size and budget, the dealer has recommended KZ Sportsman Classics in multiple configurations. The prices are all within say a couple thousand of each other, so the decision is going to come down to floor plan and up or downsides to each. More specifically my questions is regarding fully enclosed vs. expandable fold outs.

Just for argument sake, let's keep the discussion down to these 3 options. Any brand I wind up with will probably have similar configurations. The 19BHS is fully enclosed and has a slide out to create more floor space. The other 2 have expandable fold outs to create more floor space.

19BHS


18RBT


20RBT


What are the pro/cons between the fully enclosed vs. going with the expandable fold outs? Is there more maintenance with one? Is one going to be colder/hotter than the other? Is sleeping in an fold out worse than sleeping in a fully enclosed? What are the gotcha's that I am missing?

The way I see it, the bunk version (enclosed) can sleep 4-5, the expandable about the same, but there is a little more arm/leg room in the expandable...but it may get cold/hot depending on outside weather??? I guess you would hear the rain more???

It seems to me that the fold out versions are the way to go for more living space, sleeping space, and a larger bathroom. Based on the price it seems you get a lot more value with the 20RBT. It also has a larger AC unit and full size fridge. Am I missing anything?

18RBT $13,250 +/-
19BHS $14,750 +/-
20RBT $16,280 +/-

[S_Bubba]

95jersey wrote:
Yeah tow vehicle is not an issue...RAM 2500. Let me be clear on space. I have the space to fit a larger trailer and/or extend the bunks as necessary, I just don't want something that large in my yard on a permanent basis. I have no need for a huge luxurious 30ft trailer anyway. I am trying to keep the square footage and cost down. Also regarding the tent ends, I have no preference as to camping style. I have no romantic notion about camping under the stars. This is purely about space/function/value.

Let me be clear on my intention of use...should have done this upfront. I am not an avid camper, I am an expert off road enduro motorcycle racer and travel the regional championship circuit and would rather stay at the track then in some dirty hotel room miles from the race site. Getting sick of that racket. For those that may be familiar, think GNCC (Grand National Cross Country Racing). There are hundreds of these things at the events. I would be traveling in the warmer months (April-Oct), never in winter. I would only stay at the event 1 or 2 days max.

Please don't recommend toy hauler, hate them...bike(s) will go in the back of the truck and I am fine with that. I will occasionally be bringing my family/friends so I'd rather have the sleeping/living amenities of a dedicated travel trailer vs. toy hauler. We will also plan weekend group rides in the mountains/forests.

I have not made up my mind on a hybrid contrary to what other posters think. The only thing that sways me in that direction is the extra sleeping space of the pop out vs. the very cramp bunk style sleeping. I tried those bunks and they are cramped at best (5'11"). Not a big deal to me, as I will be sleeping in the largest bed, but I would like to consider the comfort of the people I bring along (family/fellow racers).

I just don't want to buy a Hybrid and after a year be like...man this sucks...what a PITA. But being limited in size...is a 21' travel trailer with bunks going to be comfortable? You can kind of hang out in the pop out tents of the Hybrid and use them as living space, whereas the bunks are cramp and only usable for nighttime sleeping.

This will be the trailer I will use for many years, so I want to make the optimal decision out of the gate. Thanks to everyone, I appreciate your recommendations.

This helps a lot. I think you should go with the standard trailer and not a hybrid. I say this as a fellow dirt biker. With a hard sided trailer, when you get to the race, you will have more time for bike prep, jetting (if you aren't EFI) tech sign up, visiting with friends and telling lies. On average, it takes me twice as long to settle in. You have to set up the tents, make and unroll your bed. etc. Now when you are done with the race, do you really want to have to go through all of those motions. What if you high sided and your ribs are killing you. Do you really want to mess with a bed roll and folding up tent ends? I do speak of from experience. Have you ever heard of the Idaho City 100. We have been an ISDE qualifying race for the past 30 years. We prep the 120 mile single loop most of the spring for our race. After a long weekend of trail work, the last thing I want to do is fold up my trailer. www.boiseridgeriders.org

[Kavoom]

The dealer wants you to buy what he sells so of course those are your choices. We are looking at floorplan and price and have many choices. Most are about the same price and quality overall in the price range you are looking at. Do look at things like porcelin toilet, ducted heat air, screws vs glue and staples and most important is black tank flush. I presently tow a pop up and live in Montana so the significant other wants walls instead of fabric for certain areas of the state. Hybrids appeal for space etc., but when we go TT, set up time will be a key factor also. Park, unhook, camp.

[SoundGuy]

DutchmenSport wrote:
A Murphy bed flips up and out of the way, providing more living room space. They still come with bunk ends (not canvas), slide-outs, but in a much shorter length, comparable to the length you're looking for.

When we were looking to downsize to a shorter couple's trailer from our triple bunk bed KZ Spree I investigated Rockwood travel trailers with a front Murphy bed. It's an interesting solution to having the convenience of a sofa for day use and a queen bed at night in a floor plan that would otherwise be too short to accommodate both. However, there's a glaring drawback to this design - very little cargo storage capacity. That was a deal breaker so we passed on the Murphy bed design and stuck with a conventional design with storage under the bed itself and this huge front pass through storage compartment. :B

[DutchmenSport]

I've re-reread all the posts on this thread and still favor a TT over a hybrid. But, a thought hit me, an alternative you may consider.

Recently, on RV.net there have been several threads going on about travel trailers with a Murphy bed in the front end. A Murphy bed flips up and out of the way, providing more living room space. They still come with bunk ends (not canvas), slide-outs, but in a much shorter length, comparable to the length you're looking for.

Before settling on a TT or a Hybrid, take the time and look at some of those models with the Murphy bed.

Here's a couple YouTube videos, these are in the 15-24 foot range. Do a YouTube search "Murphy Bed Travel Trailer" and you'll get more videos. It seems they always feature the Murphy bed near the very end of these videos, so be patient watching the videos.

Click here

Click here too

[scbwr]

RVhavingfun?....I think you've got a great perspective on what you are planning to do, and kids will really like sleeping in the bunkends and hearing all the sounds of the night. Good luck and please post some info about your rig when you get it, and let's hear about the first family trip!

[SoundGuy]

wing_zealot wrote:
Sorry you had such a bad experience with your Hybrid, mine was a very positive experience. Over 10 years and lots of good memories, no regrets. Guess you picked a lemon, it sure did leave you bitter.

Hardly, it's just a constant reminder that when we had the opportunity to go with the exact same floor plan in a travel trailer we should have. I had researched the subject pretty well but my wife was convinced that what she perceived as "extra space" provided by the hybrid was what SHE wanted, and since she always seems to get 2 votes to my 1 we went with the hybrid. :R It didn't take but two seasons for her to finally agree the negatives outweighed the positives and we should have gone straight to a travel trailer. If I'm at all "bitter" it's because of the thousands lost in depreciation on the hybrid that didn't have to happen. It was a costly lesson but I'm willing to talk about it so others considering a hybrid go into the purchase realistically, with their eyes wide open.

[RVhavingfun_]

SoundGuy wrote:

RVhavingfun? wrote:
I posted a thread asking about the drawbacks of owning a Hybrid in the Hybrid forum and received many very helpful replies from experienced owners.

And here's that discussion. As one would expect because it's posted on the Hybrid Forum most respondents are current hybrid owners and predictably view hybrids favourably, unlike many of us who once did have a hybrid but now have moved on to a travel trailer or 5th because we're so done with tenting and have no interest in ever owning a hybrid again. :R

This discussion however has caused me to think of the hundreds we've met over the years here in Canada and across the US who are avid campers, quite a few of whom we still camp with ... of that group I can only think of two couples who have owned a popup or hybrid (i.e. a camper with tenting) and still have it - one here in Ontario with a hybrid and the other couple in NY state with a popup ... virtually everyone else has long since moved on to a travel trailer, 5th, MH, etc. The reason? ... eventually reality sets in and the romance of "camping under tenting" or the illusion that you get something for nothing - i.e. the convenience of a 30' trailer in a 20' package - proves to come at the cost of inconvenience in other areas. Some smarter that I saw the light before the fact and saved themselves the aggravation and a lot of $$$$$ in lost depreciation by simply skipping the hybrid entirely, moving from the most common trailer with tenting - i.e. a popup - directly to a trailer without any - i.e. travel trailer, 5th, etc. Wish we'd done that! :R

I fully expect that at some point we'll be ready for what basically amounts to a rolling vacation home, but for now we've realized that we really want our kids to feel like they're camping—a real departure from life at home, not just a new location to live it in. I wanted to minimize the set-up involved in tent camping, but didn't feel the need to eliminate it completely. Reading some of the replies here actually helped me come to the realization that for now, while we're young and healthy, I want there to be a little work involved in camping. I'm sure that makes me a bit of a weirdo, but when I think back to those childhood memories that have my brothers and I doubling over with laughter, it's not the luxurious vacations that I recall, it's times like when my Dad and his buddy took us survival camping and we ate biscuit root and drank pine needle tea while they snuck off to the cooler they had hidden in the woods and shared a beer and some laughs over our misery. Or, when my cousin (who is used to the finer things) accidentally reserved a dump of a vacation rental for our big family winter vacation and hilarity ensued, including my Grandma wandering around offering everyone truffles at 2:00am and the boys wiring a very complicated antenna out of wire coat hangers and trying in vain tto get the Super Bowl on tv.
We've been lucky enough to stay in some posh places, and they are lovely memories too, but there's something about "roughing it" that really makes the memories stick and insure future belly laughs. In my experience anyway.
Basically, total ease and comfort is not what I'm after. Just enough to encourage us to venture out more often.
For now. I'm not opposed to future rolling luxury. :C


Anyway, I'm sure you're right that most hybrid owners come to regret their purchase, and maybe we'll find ourselves in that group as well, but in our minds we have good reason to be choosing a hybrid at this point in our lives. I've been tent camping for 37 years, and my parents have spent over 60 years hauling their tent camping supplies (and for many of those years they hauled young kids too) into the woods. Heck, my 88 year old grandma still sets up her tent and camps in the wilderness with my parents. If they can do it, I feel like I can deal with some canvas tent ends for a bit.
But I am going to enjoy a lot less prep involved in our next family camping trip! Maybe I'll use the free time to fry up some biscuit root and chill some pine needle tea for my dad to enjoy when he's done setting up his tent.;)

[wing_zealot]

Sorry you had such a bad experience with your Hybrid, mine was a very positive experience. Over 10 years and lots of good memories, no regrets. Guess you picked a lemon, it sure did leave you bitter.

[SoundGuy]

RVhavingfun? wrote:
I posted a thread asking about the drawbacks of owning a Hybrid in the Hybrid forum and received many very helpful replies from experienced owners.

And here's that discussion. As one would expect because it's posted on the Hybrid Forum most respondents are current hybrid owners and predictably view hybrids favourably, unlike many of us who once did have a hybrid but now have moved on to a travel trailer or 5th because we're so done with tenting and have no interest in ever owning a hybrid again. :R

This discussion however has caused me to think of the hundreds we've met over the years here in Canada and across the US who are avid campers, quite a few of whom we still camp with ... of that group I can only think of two couples who have owned a popup or hybrid (i.e. a camper with tenting) and still have it - one here in Ontario with a hybrid and the other couple in NY state with a popup ... virtually everyone else has long since moved on to a travel trailer, 5th, MH, etc. The reason? ... eventually reality sets in and the romance of "camping under tenting" or the illusion that you get something for nothing - i.e. the convenience of a 30' trailer in a 20' package - proves to come at the cost of inconvenience in other areas. Some smarter that I saw the light before the fact and saved themselves the aggravation and a lot of $$$$$ in lost depreciation by simply skipping the hybrid entirely, moving from the most common trailer with tenting - i.e. a popup - directly to a trailer without any - i.e. travel trailer, 5th, etc. Wish we'd done that! :R

[Ranger431]

I wouldn't think there is any HTT that wouldn't be able to be set up while still hooked to the TV. The bed can't come down any lower than the propane tanks, and I doubt it would extend past the hitch. I overnighted in mine numerous times w/o unhooking when we had a HTT.

Also, if the OP is looking at bringing adult guests I would think they would be infinitely more comfortable in a HTT bed than in a TT small bunk bed or dinette.

[RVhavingfun_]

I am no help at all as I am a total newbie (picking up our first HTT tomorrow), but we just had to make a very similar decision. I posted a thread asking about the drawbacks of owning a Hybrid in the Hybrid forum and received many very helpful replies from experienced owners. Just thought maybe it could be valuable for you in your decision making process. 🙂

One thing I thought of when reading through this thread is that if you plan to mostly use the trailer by yourself, and occasionally with other adults, would it be possible to use a hybrid like a regular TT for those quick one night stays? That way you don't have to deal with the tent ends (although they don't seem all that difficult to set up) on short trips, but you have nice big beds that can accommodate adults when you need them.
It does seem like most of the bunks in the BH models were designed with children in mind, which is one of reasons we went with a hybrid.

[CavemanCharlie]

I prefer a all hard sided TT. And, I like to have a dinette on the right (curb) side or in the back. That way I can see my campsite and the lake when I'm having breakfast in the morning and such.

Those are just my preferences.

[SoundGuy]

bid_time wrote:
I will refute some of those claims based upon my experience with a Hybrid and a TT.
1. The mattress in my hybrid was thicker then the one I currently have in my TT. Neither one is a problem.

My TT is still in winter storage so I can't measure the mattress but I'd estimate it's ~ 8" thick, on top of which I have a 3" thick gel memory foam topper that remains permanently on the bed ... can't do that in any hybrid. In fact, I remember once dragging a real mattress into the trailer and getting it up on to that front bed platform ... that sure solved the comfort problem but there was no way it could stay there for travel and there was likewise nowhere else in the trailer where it could be stored ... so we just suffered with the crappy stock mattress with the 60/40 fold in it until we finally go wise and traded for a travel trailer with a queen bed and real mattress.

2. The mattress in my hybrid did not fold, it came in two sections.

Even worse. :E

3. The fold out beds in my hybrid did not leak (at least not in the 12 years I had it. Neither did the canvass.

You're lucky as many do. By the second spring our hybrid had a definite musty smell and the inside surface of the tiny storage compartment that was formed by the front wall was wet to the touch. To solve this I would have had to rip out the entire front of the trailer from the inside but I never found out if it was condensation or leakage as we traded it in on a travel trailer that in 6 subsequent years never showed any signs of leakage at all.

4. We did not constantly move stuff around. Once it was set up on-site it was good to go. Just the same as my TT currently is.

Key words - "Once it was set up on-site" ... to get to that point it's hard to avoid moving A to B to C, especially bedding that's too bulky to live on the beds in the travel mode. We were lucky in that our Trailcruiser had but one hybrid bed at the front but two permanent bunk beds at the rear ... that's where we stored bedding for the front bed during travel but that meant making up the bed every time we stopped for the night.

I liked the fact that I had the space of a 30' in the weight and shape of a 25' package. But in the end when I got a new one I got a TT for several reasons like not wanting to sleep in a tent end anymore.

Which is exactly what happens to so many well intentioned hybrid owners ... so if that's the case many would be better served by simply skipping the hybrid in the first place and just go where they're most likely going to end up anyway - a travel trailer. 😉

BTW, the OP said - "I am an expert off road enduro motorcycle racer and travel the regional championship circuit ..." - which suggests to me he may at times be interested in remaining hitched to the tow vehicle for short overnight stays, just as those of us who long distance travel often do. Depending on the relationship between the trailer and tow vehicle that can be impossible with a hybrid due to lack of clearance when the front hybrid bed is deployed ... but it's a non-issue with a travel trailer.

The devil is in the details. 😉

[scbwr]

95Jersey!

As I said before, I'd go with the larger hybrid. I may be a little different than others, but if I lived in a community where I could keep my trailer on my property, I could live with a hybrid very easily. I don't think that you are bound to have leaks, but you have to buy a quality unit. It's very possible to get gear organized and not have to move stuff to get stuff. Getting out of bunkends isn't a problem unless you're older (as I am) and make more frequent bathroom treks at night. We were living in western NY state when we had our popups, and we didn't have that many occasions where we packed up in the rain, and we took some longer trips such as out to Mount Rushmore and on the road for several weeks. But, if in a popup or hybrid, you are going camping....more so than rving! I think a lot of TT and 5W owners get used to a lifestyle that is not like camping, which isn't a bad thing. I'm just saying it is different. We downsized to our trailer and wanted the outside kitchen to get back into cooking outside and eating more meals outside. We were just in a RV resort in Lake Placid, Florida and noticed that we were the only folks we could see enjoying our meals outside and enjoying the nice weather.

Financially, if you want to reduce the risk selling a almost new unit, than look for a good used one and try it for a season or two. Then, if you want to upgrade to a new one, you should be in good shape.

Good luck!