While looking for a diesel tow vehicle, made before 2008, called apre-emissions truck. I noticed the prices are very high. Both 3500& heavier, like the Freightliner M2 Sportchassis. The 3500 trucks would have over 100K miles and they would still want $20K to $30K and more. The M2 was even worse, asking prices are $60K to $80K. Seems like that would be what people paid for them new, back in 2004-2007. Back then you could buy a new heavy duty Class 7 tractor w/sleeper for $100K. Maybe I'm wrong, but the medium duty M2 was in ads for $80K, in the crew cab, for "Recreational" use. A new base Ram reg cab diesel, w/6.7L Cummins TD & 6-speed manual,looks to be available for $37K to $41K out the door. With no auto trans to worry about, the only problem would be the emissions equip. I don't know if that can be covered by extended factory warranty or not. But, I think that's a good idea to cover that equipment. A Chevy 2500 HD gas truck, tow 14,500 lb. But, costs almost as much as a diesel. I think the diesel will hold its value better. The trucking industry, has had to deal with lower MPG, as a result of the new emissions. So, companies are rebuilding pre-emissionsClass 7 & 8 tractors. They're called Gliders (origin unknown). Seethis web site I stumbled on: Fitzgerald Glider Kits.com. I don'tthink the M2 Sportchassis (Crew Cab) will get rebuilt. Due to very limited demand. But, it sure would be nice, if they were and they priced right.Any suggestions on finding a RV TV, that can tow 11K lb, at a morereasonable cost?

I agree that pre-emissions diesels are held at a premium, but I'm happy for it because I could probably sell my Dodge for what I paid for it 4 years ago.

boogie_4wheel wrote:I agree that pre-emissions diesels are held at a premium, but I'm happy for it because I could probably sell my Dodge for what I paid for it 4 years ago.X2Even though I am nearing 300K, it all still works on our 2001 2500 SLT Lariat. This was basically a fully loaded with the exception of Leather and alarm. :)

A new Class 5 diesel from Ram or Ford is about $60K out the door if you don't go for high level trim and options. My Class 2B diesel in 2005 was just over $30k and sold for $17k to a private party after 120K miles and 10 years.

I found all used diesels were priced too high relative to the cost of new trucks, so I bit the bullet and bought new. I wanted something with a reasonable number of miles so it would last me many years, and I found I could only save $5-7k over new with a full warranty in exchange for several years of use and 60-80k miles. That math didn't make sense to me.

Keep in mind medium duty trucks are designed for fleet service. The expected life is 500,000 miles. So a truck with 100,000 miles is just getting broken in. Heavy Duty Trucks (HDT) are designed for a million miles of service.In 2007 when I started looking for a MDT to tow with new M2 sportchassis were $120,000. The C4500 Kodiak Monroe conversion that I bought new had a sticker price of $105,000. Luckily diesel prices were approaching $5.00 per gallon so I was able to negotiate down to $80,000. At that time you could find an HDT with 300,000 miles that had been setup to tow an RV for less than $50,000 After towing with the Kodiak C4500 I would find it very difficult to go back to a 3500. The C4500 is so much more stable and safe feeling than my C3500 was.The folks who have gone from an MDT to an HDT say towing with the HDT is way more comfortable than with the MDT. I had to go with an MDT because my 90 year old Dad and my DW would not have been able to climb up into the cab.

Pre-emissions diesel trucks seen high priced to me.

blofgren
Explorer
May 28, 2016
spoon059 wrote:
FishOnOne wrote:
The people who use these trucks as work trucks don't care about heated steering wheels or heated/cooled seats. I can assure you the pre dpf trucks are going to be more reliable due to their simplistic design. Your 6.7 DPF truck requires a 67k miles emission service while that non DPF truck will just keep on truckin. The DPF does have a life span and will age faster if you have an engine that burns some oil.

I have a Tradesman with chrome, power locks/windows and cruise control. I bought my truck for the engine, not for heated seats or steering wheels.

Yes, they are more simplistic, but if we are going down that route than why not a simple big block gas engine from the 60's. You could fix that with a hammer, a screwdriver and a piece of chewing gum.

The reality of life is that newer better technology comes along all the time. With more technology comes the chances of more things failing. It was easy to fix or redneck engineer the window crank when they broke, now with power windows its a lot harder to fix when you are at the lake for a weekend.

I have no reason to believe that my 2015 diesel with emissions equipment won't work well for a long time, if it is taken care of. By that I mean worked properly and not used for little trips to the grocery store all the time. By that I mean proper maintenance and quality fuels and oils. Maybe it won't last 600,000 miles like the pre-emissions trucks did... but the reality is that very few people actually ever see that long of a duty cycle. I don't plan to own this truck much past 150K miles, mainly because I don't feel like dealing with everything else on a truck of that age... seats, electronics, suspension, brake lines, etc. That means that in about 8 or 9 years someone will be able to buy a low mileage, relatively clean Cummins that was used correctly and maintained correctly. I'm reasonably certain that I will get a fair price for my truck when I go to sell it.

Oh yea... check with your cousins brothers in-laws step nephew who used to own that horrible Ram... my 2015 doesn't require any EGR service at 67.5K miles. I assume that my DPF will have some service life at some point. At that time I can either delete the emissions if I want, have it cleaned or spend $1200 and replace the DPF.

Great post. My Laramie does have many bells and whistles but I'm quite confident they will be good for many years to come. I plan on keeping my truck for a LONG time, like 20 years so reliability was important to me.

I too am confident in the engine and emissions equipment. My truck has only gone into regen a few times, likely because it tows the fifth wheel so often and gets hot enough to burn off. The only way that I know it is occurring is because the DPF smells from the additional heat.

I also think the 6.7L is good for high mileage; several of them are showing up in the Cummins high mileage club Million Mile category now! :C
spoon059
Explorer II
May 28, 2016
FishOnOne wrote:
The people who use these trucks as work trucks don't care about heated steering wheels or heated/cooled seats. I can assure you the pre dpf trucks are going to be more reliable due to their simplistic design. Your 6.7 DPF truck requires a 67k miles emission service while that non DPF truck will just keep on truckin. The DPF does have a life span and will age faster if you have an engine that burns some oil.

I have a Tradesman with chrome, power locks/windows and cruise control. I bought my truck for the engine, not for heated seats or steering wheels.

Yes, they are more simplistic, but if we are going down that route than why not a simple big block gas engine from the 60's. You could fix that with a hammer, a screwdriver and a piece of chewing gum.

The reality of life is that newer better technology comes along all the time. With more technology comes the chances of more things failing. It was easy to fix or redneck engineer the window crank when they broke, now with power windows its a lot harder to fix when you are at the lake for a weekend.

I have no reason to believe that my 2015 diesel with emissions equipment won't work well for a long time, if it is taken care of. By that I mean worked properly and not used for little trips to the grocery store all the time. By that I mean proper maintenance and quality fuels and oils. Maybe it won't last 600,000 miles like the pre-emissions trucks did... but the reality is that very few people actually ever see that long of a duty cycle. I don't plan to own this truck much past 150K miles, mainly because I don't feel like dealing with everything else on a truck of that age... seats, electronics, suspension, brake lines, etc. That means that in about 8 or 9 years someone will be able to buy a low mileage, relatively clean Cummins that was used correctly and maintained correctly. I'm reasonably certain that I will get a fair price for my truck when I go to sell it.

Oh yea... check with your cousins brothers in-laws step nephew who used to own that horrible Ram... my 2015 doesn't require any EGR service at 67.5K miles. I assume that my DPF will have some service life at some point. At that time I can either delete the emissions if I want, have it cleaned or spend $1200 and replace the DPF.
FishOnOne
Nomad
May 28, 2016
jus2shy wrote:
FishOnOne wrote:
spoon059 wrote:

I get 22 on the highway at speed. I get about 17 average, mostly in town style driving. I get around 12 (depending on terrain) towing my trailer. I've got WAY more HP and torque and a much newer frame and interior. I may be wrong, but I believe Cummins knew what they were doing with this engine and emissions requirements and think it will last at least as long as I plan to drive it. If you drive it the way they meant for it to be driven, your DPF shouldn't clog up...

I think the pre-emissions diesels fad is more about what is in some peoples heads, and less about the quality of vehicle.

The people who use these trucks as work trucks don't care about heated steering wheels or heated/cooled seats. I can assure you the pre dpf trucks are going to be more reliable due to their simplistic design. Your 6.7 DPF truck requires a 67k miles emission service while that non DPF truck will just keep on truckin. The DPF does have a life span and will age faster if you have an engine that burns some oil.

Emissions service (aka soot cleaning for EGR and turbo) is no longer required at 67k. Only thing done at 67k is to change out the crank case filter. 2013+ emissions don't even use half the EGR rate that the 07 to 12 Cummins motors did.

But in the end, whenever you add complexity to any machine, you add failure points. It's that simple.

Agreed....
W4RLR
Explorer
May 28, 2016
I had a pre-emissions F-250. It got totaled in a wreck. Found a 2008 F-250. had to go to Indiana to get it, as even the emissions diesels are tough to find at a fair price. I found out after I bought it that the previous owner had the computer modified to eliminate the regenerations for the DPF that suck up the fuel. The DPF was also missing. So I get the same fuel economy that I got with my old truck, and have none of the issues that the emissions equipment cause. Is it technically legal? No, but I don't have to go through emissions testing in Tennessee so it isn't an issue. I doubt the dealership even checked to see if the DPF was still installed.
jus2shy
Explorer
May 28, 2016
FishOnOne wrote:
spoon059 wrote:

I get 22 on the highway at speed. I get about 17 average, mostly in town style driving. I get around 12 (depending on terrain) towing my trailer. I've got WAY more HP and torque and a much newer frame and interior. I may be wrong, but I believe Cummins knew what they were doing with this engine and emissions requirements and think it will last at least as long as I plan to drive it. If you drive it the way they meant for it to be driven, your DPF shouldn't clog up...

I think the pre-emissions diesels fad is more about what is in some peoples heads, and less about the quality of vehicle.

The people who use these trucks as work trucks don't care about heated steering wheels or heated/cooled seats. I can assure you the pre dpf trucks are going to be more reliable due to their simplistic design. Your 6.7 DPF truck requires a 67k miles emission service while that non DPF truck will just keep on truckin. The DPF does have a life span and will age faster if you have an engine that burns some oil.

Emissions service (aka soot cleaning for EGR and turbo) is no longer required at 67k. Only thing done at 67k is to change out the crank case filter. 2013+ emissions don't even use half the EGR rate that the 07 to 12 Cummins motors did.

But in the end, whenever you add complexity to any machine, you add failure points. It's that simple.
FishOnOne
Nomad
May 28, 2016
spoon059 wrote:
wanderingbob wrote:
I get better mileage with my 2014 Ram than I did with my 07 5.9 ctd.

I get 22 on the highway at speed. I get about 17 average, mostly in town style driving. I get around 12 (depending on terrain) towing my trailer. I've got WAY more HP and torque and a much newer frame and interior. I may be wrong, but I believe Cummins knew what they were doing with this engine and emissions requirements and think it will last at least as long as I plan to drive it. If you drive it the way they meant for it to be driven, your DPF shouldn't clog up...

I think the pre-emissions diesels fad is more about what is in some peoples heads, and less about the quality of vehicle.

The people who use these trucks as work trucks don't care about heated steering wheels or heated/cooled seats. I can assure you the pre dpf trucks are going to be more reliable due to their simplistic design. Your 6.7 DPF truck requires a 67k miles emission service while that non DPF truck will just keep on truckin. The DPF does have a life span and will age faster if you have an engine that burns some oil.
mtofell1
Explorer
May 28, 2016
spoon059 wrote:
wanderingbob wrote:
I get better mileage with my 2014 Ram than I did with my 07 5.9 ctd.

I get 22 on the highway at speed. I get about 17 average, mostly in town style driving. I get around 12 (depending on terrain) towing my trailer. I've got WAY more HP and torque and a much newer frame and interior. I may be wrong, but I believe Cummins knew what they were doing with this engine and emissions requirements and think it will last at least as long as I plan to drive it. If you drive it the way they meant for it to be driven, your DPF shouldn't clog up...

I think the pre-emissions diesels fad is more about what is in some peoples heads, and less about the quality of vehicle.

The MPG thing is interesting between old/new diesels. For the record I'm not a fuel micro-manager AT ALL. A big part is that my company pays for it so within some reason I really don't care. Also, driving 7000# down the road what is one really to expect?

Anyway, the newer gassers get substantially better mileage than the ones of a generation ago. For example, my 6.4 Hemi gets ballpark 13 with a mix of city/hwy. The larger gassers of a generation ago were lucky to see 10 rolling downhill with a good tailwind. Ford V10, Chevy 8.1, etc.

It seems the only thing that gets talked about with the newer diesels is all the emission stuff. But, it sounds like fuel economy has also improved a tick or two. I know with my Hemi the cylinder de-activation thing helps. I know enough to know someone much smarter than me is building these new diesels. Is there new technology to help fuel savings as well as all the emission stuff?
spoon059
Explorer II
May 28, 2016
wanderingbob wrote:
I get better mileage with my 2014 Ram than I did with my 07 5.9 ctd.

I get 22 on the highway at speed. I get about 17 average, mostly in town style driving. I get around 12 (depending on terrain) towing my trailer. I've got WAY more HP and torque and a much newer frame and interior. I may be wrong, but I believe Cummins knew what they were doing with this engine and emissions requirements and think it will last at least as long as I plan to drive it. If you drive it the way they meant for it to be driven, your DPF shouldn't clog up...

I think the pre-emissions diesels fad is more about what is in some peoples heads, and less about the quality of vehicle.
mtofell1
Explorer
May 27, 2016
wanderingbob wrote:
I get better mileage with my 2014 Ram than I did with my 07 5.9 ctd . Whats wrong with emission trucks ? But when I sold my 07 I got $1500 more than I paid for it even after driving it for 101,000 miles ?

Shoot.... I thought I did well - drove mine for 7 years and put 125K miles on it and sold for 8K less than I paid. I never realized I could actually make a profit. Nice work!
wanderingbob
Explorer II
May 26, 2016
I get better mileage with my 2014 Ram than I did with my 07 5.9 ctd . Whats wrong with emission trucks ? But when I sold my 07 I got $1500 more than I paid for it even after driving it for 101,000 miles ?