"Upgrading" from popup to TT and need info on TT culture.

[BPRescue]

Hi All,

I have some questions about the travel trailer scene, but also recommendations on 21' to 23' TT or possibly Toy hauler models. I apologize in advance, this is a tad long...

A bit of history. I was raised in Jackson Wyoming, been camping , fishing, etc. all my life. I currently have a 2000 Jayco Popup with an auto loading rack for my 12' aluminum boat. I have not really been a campground guy, and historically have always dry camped in remote areas. My popup is setup with Solar, so I am only limited really by propane, though I only use my stove, furnace, fridge and lights. Anyway, I have slept on the ground more than enough to warrant a camper, so this coupled with off road capability was the reason for my popup over a TT. When I purchased it, I had a lift put on it and put on larger tires for better clearance, but also flotation in sand, mud, and a bit tougher for the rocks I get in my current state of AZ.

Fast forward 17 years, and I am now in my late 40's with a bad shoulder and looking to simplify a bit. I also have two children just starting to break into the teenage years. As time goes on, the popup becomes more of a chore, actually reducing my time in the field per the time it takes to set it up since I won't do overnighters anymore. Ever since I designed the autoloader for my boat, it has been better, but still takes 2-3 hours to set up including moving/packing all the necessities. Either way, I am considering "upgrading" to a TT. I say "upgrade" loosely as while I do recognize it is a leap in comfort and simplicity, it will also detract from my ability to hit the remote campsites of the past, and limit me to campgrounds, or modestly maintained roadways where again, I really was never satisfied with traffic close by. Putting something this large on not only blocks the ability to hit primitive roads, it also is less navigable, meaning my agility with the ability to get to tight areas on said primitive roads, including off canter terrain, trees, mud, etc.

I have casually looked a bit and know I do not want anything longer than a 23 model (27'), but potentially would like to be in the 21 range. I am looking for a decent queen bed for me and the wife. I am not looking for canvas, and part of the "comfort" for me, is that I don't want to break apart a dinette for the kids to sleep; which is why I like the "bunk" style configuration that will also afford a little real world storage. Additionally, I am ready for water allowing both shower and other needs including black water if ya know what I'm saying... While there would be times I hit full hookups, mainly for traveling on vacation, most of my usage would still be dry camping. In that regard, I already have 200w solar panels, and will immediately upgrade the batteries to get me more AMP hours onsite. In short, I don't want to shoot myself in the foot by limiting myself to formal campgrounds with asphalt, I do enjoy the prospect of the aided comforts. Rain also tends to get in the way, causing extra work especially when closing it up since you have to take it home and open it back up to dry it out.

So, I will be testing this a bit in renting a Jayco Jay Flight 23MBH which I believe would be my limit in terms of length at just over 27'. I will be taking a trip to Yellowstone and Jackson, which has already presented some issues. For Yellowstone, I want to stay in the park and treat this as a "hotel" so doing the full hookup thing. I searching campgrounds however, I find much is booked over 6 months in advance and $50-$75 a night. Perusing reviews of many campgrounds, I find the MANY RV'rs complain about the site being off level, rutted roads "in the campground", which to me, even in remote campgrounds in AZ, I wouldn't expect too many issues for a modest size TT. Maybe an RV. That said, I find it interesting that the culture of many appears to use these in a very formal setting, which I am just not into camping on top of others. I know doing this will limit me as to my true outback type camping, but with my kids getting older in a hurry, I need less excuses to get out without forcing me to take time off. In other words, weekends. There is much forest service land here, so I do have options. I also have a ski boat, so I have considered putting said boat in storage at the lake, and making quick trips while eliminating the hotel...

I have a Tundra with 9500lb towing, so that is not a concern for me in terms of the trailers I am looking at, though lighter is always better. As for the trailer, a 21-23 model is the most I would want to do, and if I get a TT, I don't see getting below an 18 model as it seems for just a few feet, you get much more without re configuring it all the time. Again, that comfort thing I seek of just pulling it up, and enjoying...

Anyway, with my points above, and more directly the complaints I see about many RV'rs, or shall I say the ones who write reviews on the campgrounds, I am wondering if the standard with these things is to really just use them mostly in campgrounds and or park them along well maintained dirt roads? Again, I want the option to go full hookup, but will mostly do dry camping and at some point based on how well my solar works, may get a generator as well. I just don't want to make the mistake of limiting myself to pulling off the side of a busy road, or using a formal campground. I have to be able to get in the middle of nowhere, otherwise this won't be for me. As indicated, I will be testing this with a rented TT, so that should give me a good feel of what I can and can't do...

Finally, a couple models I was looking at was the Jayco Jay Flight 23MBH and the Jayco Jay Feather 23BHM. Floor plans look almost identical and I love the Murphy bed concept and the large slide out really seems to give you incredible space for a smaller footprint. The bench style dinette in my popup is limiting and I do tire of the smaller size and do like the U shape. Does anyone know the difference in these two models? Another concern is I have my 12' aluminum to deal with, so may consider a Toy hauler especially given the added structure/strength, but I have not really seen anything I like as much as these TT's. Maybe an autoloader on my Tundra is in the future... For this reason I hate to give up my popup as the boat loader is just slick there. Either way, any recommendations or info on my concerns would be great.

Sorry again for the length, but I thank you all for any wisdom you may be able to impart.

[GScottLockwood]

We have a Jayco Whitehawk 23 MRB and it is great for the two of us as it has a Murphy bed. Wouldn't work for the teens. I believe they make a bunkhouse model. I really like the quality of the Whitehawk line and ours has an outdoor kitchen and tv that I thought I wouldn't care about but both are quite handy. Good luck with your quest.

[mikakuja]

Camp Lite makes a nice light weight bunk model that may fit your needs, all aluminum and composite materials. Also has the off road package option. Click Here...

[RPreeb]

One possible model for you to research we saw at the dealer where we bought our Jay Feather. It was called a Palomini Off Road (yes that's how it's spelled), and was set up higher with off road looking tires. We didn't go inside as we weren't looking for something like that. I can't tell you a thing about it except that it would go farther into the back country than we could even think about in our X213.

Google Palomini Off Road for floor plans and info.

[BPRescue]

SoundGuy wrote:

rbpru wrote:
I always suggest renting a TT the size you want and try before you buy.

Seems the OP is ahead of you, saying in his opening post - "So, I will be testing this a bit in renting a Jayco Jay Flight 23MBH which I believe would be my limit in terms of length at just over 27'. I will be taking a trip to Yellowstone and Jackson ..." 'though I doubt dragging a trailer this large to an RV parking lot like Fishing Bridge is going to tell him much. 😉

My test plan...

Night 1: Put it on the TV, get a feel for the size and weight by driving both highway and a quick dry camp on an FS road in Alpine. Also quickly get a feel for the Equalizer, but also if air bags are in my future...

Night 2-5: Stay at Fishing Bridge as a "hotel". Yes, I know it is packed like sardines and a formal site with asphalt pads and I will "try" not to let the site influence my test. What I am looking for here is to "tell me" what the full hookup experience is like including dump stations, etc. Also, this is sleeping only as I will rarely be here, and one night I won't stay there per a walk in camp.

Night 6: I have a reservation at Colter Bay; again with full hookups to go through setup again in a formal site. Similar to Fishing bridge, this gives me a feel for navigation of the TT around and into spots. This also allows me to park the TT, and do some scouting between Togwotee and the Jackson area for sites in the national forest I have used before. If I find them still usable , and I am comfortable with navigation, I will move there. If they are not available, I am sure I will find something.

Nights 7-10: Unknown, but it will be dry camping per above with the worst case scenario hitting one of the local campgrounds like Gros Ventre. That would help on just the power side, but also using all water tanks off grid.

My testing includes towing and camping. On the towing side, I know I am well within my limits in terms of tow weight, payload, etc. Remember, I have a ski boat that is just under the weight of this TT, and have my smaller popup as well, so this is not my first rodeo. The test in towing means how the weight /size feels on paved and gravel roads, agility, etc. In that regard, I only have 10 days, but in that time, I will either get a "what was I thinking?", or identify potential issues that I have and have not considered. Either way, any test is going to be better than buying off the lot as many do. I think this is where you get the TT's sitting without being used as people really never had experience in camping, let alone with a large TT that has limitations. While I am not new to camping, or self contained campers, this opens the door to using more campgrounds than I am used to, which really was the original question since most reviews complained about less than parking lot conditions. So, if that is what this is all about, I will learn that quickly as well. Not for me...

Thank you all for your helpful responses.

[rexlion]

profdant139 wrote:
Rex, just to set the record straight, the box on my trailer is almost 12 feet long. Very, very small. But we like it that way -- we can park it anywhere we can park the truck!

I was trying to indicate overall length, so I came close... probably within 1' or 2'.

BP, some campground reviewers just have to find something to complain about in their reviews! I'm sure your rental experience will help you evaluate pros and cons.

[BPRescue]

rexlion wrote:
There are a couple or a few folks on here who take their TTs off road. But I think the TTs are pretty small ones. Like Prof. Dan's Fun Finder, for example... something like 17' long, I think? You really need a short trailer to avoid bottoming out the rear end when going through swales and gullies. And the TT needs to be well built to take the pounding.

Yellowstone is pretty crowded. If I were you, I'd consider staying near the Tetons, maybe at one of the more remote NF possibilities (either boondock or CG), and drive into Yellowstone for a day or two. If I could put up with it that much.

There are all sorts of campers. Some expect the Ritz at the CG. Others don't mind if they do roll through some ruts or block up one side of the RV. I don't know if we can put a "TT culture" label onto TT owners as a whole.

I have to ask, what's the big deal about setting up/taking down a popup, or even loading/unloading a boat, when you have 2 teenagers to do the work for you? 😉 Maybe you're looking at this all wrong... you will have free labor! And if it turns out (as some believe) that they will short-circuit your family camping plans, you will have saved some big bucks by using what you have. But on the other hand, if you are thinking that most of your trips will be minus the teens and you want something that will let you (emphasis on 'you') get out there much more often, then you don't need a large TT; shop for a small TT to use for the personal trips, and keep the popup (with the sleeping space) for the family trips. Or a small TT plus a tent for the kiddos... teens like to be by themselves at times.

This is the first time my kids will see the Jackson area and Yellowstone. I was raised in Jackson and did work in Yellowstone for a stint of time as well, so I am very familiar with the area, just maybe not the traffic that has increased since... On the Yellowstone leg, I have set up Fishing Bridge as a centralized base camp. I know it will be packed, and sites are on top of each other, but this site is just to get me in the park. Entering through the west end, or Jackson does have its own issues adding time delay's per traffic and distance which is why I did not consider that. I won't be basing my TT experience on anything outside of the comforts inside the TT; hopefully anyway since we will be up close and personal with the neighbors. But, I will only be sleeping there, and not all nights as we will be doing some backcountry camping as well. I just want to get the kids to some of the spots that have proven magical for me. So, I don't want to waste additional time entering and exiting the park just awaiting the traffic jams for Bison that you see everywhere...

As for setup time with a popup, there is no doubt my choice of sites often require more effort than normal in terms of leveling the popup. I will often get there very late at night, so this is the time where putting it up, extending beds, and getting it all ready can be an issue; especially when it rains. That coupled with preparation and packing of gear is an issue since there is zero storage in the popup. Even though we have grown quite efficient, with everyone knowing their job, you still have to unpack all to get it comfortable. If I were to do the TT, it would have all of its own supplies that are mostly in place, so it should be less work but also offer the ability to reach longer distances as overnight-ing on the way to the destination will be very easy.

The boat adds to the equation as well, though I have not worked out what I would do if I bought a TT. It's about 150lbs which does not sound bad, but manipulating it over vents is a struggle. So manipulating it, even for two teenagers is fun and could easily damage the camper. That issue was resolved however with a rack I designed. Prior to the rack it took at least 30 minutes to an hour not just to get it loaded, but also secured safely/ properly. My rack turns this into just a few minutes and best of all, it is auto loading so there is no lifting and I can do it by myself. In that regard, everything adds time, so efficiency is key. But yes, my dad was a very good teacher on delegating, so I have learned the art well...

As for the "TT culture", my intent was not to label all TT owners that way, hence posing the question here. I was just surprised in reading reviews on campgrounds that the vast majority complained about pot holes and other items that led me to wonder if there are in fact severe limitations here...


Anyway, thanks again for all your responses.

[totaldla]

OP: If you are serious about off-highway capability, check out ORV's Black Rock series.

[BPRescue]

goducks10 wrote:
This is about as off road as you can get in a massed produced TT.
Click on the center video on the bottom of the page.
http://outdoorsrvmfg.com/black-rock-23bks/

when the kids no longer go camping, the bunks could be used for other storage.

Thank you for that info, I will look closer at this unit. I was concerned about the frame/suspension on the Jayco and was going to investigate it a bit. Similar to my popup, while I was able to raise it and get the larger tires for better flotation and durability off road, it did not account for the suspension or frame that later came out in the Baja series. I found a Baja for my brother and while it did not really afford him much more capability per our testing, he was not governed by speed as much and there was much less stress on his box/internal components which is huge... Clearly we are still dealing with a large footprint on the TT and the weight for less than ideal conditions, but if they are claiming an off road capable frame/suspension, this might be the ticket. As another person commented, I will likely hold on to my TT as I still have some great sites I would never make in even a smaller TT, so this would allow me the speed to which I am looking for as not all of my trips are deep in... Obviously this won't replace walk in camping either, just expand it all a bit more...

I did come across a couple others that are a bit over the top, but pretty darn cool. Australia has the off road market cornered, that is for sure...
http://www.lotuscaravans.com.au/caravans/freelander
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk6KJXeOM0k

[BPRescue]

SoundGuy wrote:

totaldla wrote:
Throw the boat on top of the truck. Get a Trailer optimized for a family. Be realistic about how often you're gonna use it so you don't over-spend. Lots of used rigs out there that have mostly sat in a driveway.

spike99 wrote:
Agree. The OP also needs to remember that teenagers say they'd like to go camping with mom/dad but after a few times, they want to stay home. re: Being with mom/dad is uncool. And since most parents don't want to leave teenagers alone, they don't go camping either. Thus... newly bought / nice looking RV sits in the driveway - rarely to be used again....

X3. I only got as far with the OP's post as - "I also have two children just starting to break into the teenage years" - which from personal experience tells me he's in for a rude awakening. :E Once kids hit high school their interest changes and time for camping with parental units won't just become "uncool", it will become non-existent. Friends (especially the opposite sex), sports, part time jobs, school work, etc, etc, etc, will all interfere with any hopes the OP may have for camping like they did "in the good ol' days" when the kids were younger. Yeah, I know - the OP thinks his situation is different ... but it's not. :W

Ha, it almost sounds like the tail wags the dog in your family... Seriously though, I do respectfully disagree with your assessment of my family and won't accept the standard by which you have measured. I have been camping all my life, which was passed down by my father and continues today through me. I once was a teenager and can confirm that it did not impact the love I had for the outdoors, or the time we spent in the outdoors. It was/is not an activity, but instead a lifestyle. Maybe that is the difference between you and I, but I can tell you that back then I only knew it was part of me and that I loved it; today I know why. It is for that reason I try to mimic just how my father raised us, and recognize a large part of why we did not stray, or get in trouble was because he taught us a better way to get high, or really just what life was all about... I guess if you are from the city, think of this as just recreation, or really don't have true open spaces beyond your state RV parks, then it might be hard to understand. It's not just me mind you, my siblings and their children who are now grown are, and always have been well integrated. So, if that's your excuse, I think you gave up too soon... It does not stop, or start frankly when they are teenagers and leaving them home alone while you choose a different lifestyle than the family is not the answer. It's spending time with the family enjoying the same lifestyle. Time is all that is really important, isn't it...

[SoundGuy]

rbpru wrote:
I always suggest renting a TT the size you want and try before you buy.

Seems the OP is ahead of you, saying in his opening post - "So, I will be testing this a bit in renting a Jayco Jay Flight 23MBH which I believe would be my limit in terms of length at just over 27'. I will be taking a trip to Yellowstone and Jackson ..." 'though I doubt dragging a trailer this large to an RV parking lot like Fishing Bridge is going to tell him much. 😉

[benr0]

Don't automatically rule out Fishing Bridge campground in Yellowstone.
Yes you will be packed in there.
We camped there and used as a hotel for 10 days...
We left in the AM with food, water, bicycles and anything else we wanted. Did not return till night. Only 1/2 day in the campground for laundry etc.
Despite the sardine experience in the campground, I would not hesitate to camp there again as we were really never there. It served us well as a home base.

[wowens79]

I recently made the move from a PUP to a TT after 9 years in the PUP. Can can tell you set up and take down is so much easier, and faster. Also lots of times we would have to pop up and down at home either before and/or after the trip. The TT eliminates all of that.

I've got 2 teenagers that actually enjoy camping. My daughter asked for her 16th birthday party to take her friends camping, so we will be taking 7-8 teenagers with us. (Wish me luck on that)

Unfortunately here in the south east, we don't really have the option of boondocking, it is all state park, or COE campgrounds and a few others. Some campgrounds are really hard to get into, like on the gulf coast, you have to plan 6-11 months out. Others you can get in easily, but it depends on location, and time of year.

Good luck in the search, we have been happy we made the switch, and wish we had done it sooner. Although we have great memories of the popup.

[profdant139]

Rex, just to set the record straight, the box on my trailer is almost 12 feet long. Very, very small. But we like it that way -- we can park it anywhere we can park the truck!

[rbpru]

We came from a canoe and tent background, then we owned a PUP which added to the convenience of camping. However, the biggest change when moving to a TT was the loss of the feeling of camping.

It is true that you can always cook, eat and play outside, indeed some TTs have an outdoor kitchen. Still the reason for a TT is to have "all the comforts of home" and in my opinion these comforts steal some of the feel of camping.

In theory the TT can serve only as a waterproof tent but in reality you have a portion of your home, that needs to be heated and cooled, which you are dragging everywhere you go.

We bought our TT because we wanted to travel without the hassle of set up and take down and move easily from point to point. It serves this purpose very well. But things like cold mornings, packing wet, sharp winds, ice chests and critters hoping to share your tent are lost. These are all part of the feel of camping.

I always suggest renting a TT the size you want and try before you buy.

Good Luck.