Thinking about Def

[Targa]

I know that this has been proven to be a much more reliable way to manage the emissions systems than on my 09' pre def Cummins for example but what happens in a couple of years when/if the manufacturers can come up with a reliable way to manage the emissions without the need of an additional fuel system? I think the value of the DEF equipped trucks will tank to the point of it being hard to get rid of them. This is in my head every time I try to give a diesel another go. I do think this will happen, the engineers are entirely to smart not to be working on ways to simplify the emission systems to make them more reliable and user friendly, knowing that they would have a huge grip on the diesel market.

[NinerBikes]

Huntindog wrote:

BB_TX wrote:

dreeder wrote:
.................
which could possibly effect resale of the vehicle down the road due to the additional fuel system. ...........

DEF is not an additional fuel system. The fluid is injected into the exhaust flow at the SCR to reduce pollutants.

DEF explained

I can explain it easy.
There are basically two types of emissions in diesels that are problems.
NoOX, and particlates.
There are two ways to lower the NOX. LOTs of EGR to lower the combustion chamber temps, and lower the NOX formation in the engine (this lowers MPGs, power, and causes things like the EGR cooler and turbo to get choked with soot} or tuning the motor for best performance, then treating the NOX with an after treatment in thje exhaust (SCR). This is what the DEF is for.

Whether DEF is used or not, both systems use a DPF for particulate emissions... The interaction part has to do with THE DEF systems being able to use LESS EGR, so the DPF can go longer between regens.

There is a 3rd way to regulate NOX, and that is to also have a butterfly valve for air and oxygen intake to be cut back or restricted, in conjunction with an EGR. Cut back on the air intake, and you choke the air intake enough to effectively lower the compression ratio and lower the fuel combustion temperatures too, which again reduces NOX production.

A SCR NOX regulated system which treats NOX with diesel exhaust fluid allows the tuners to tune for power and better fuel efficiency, as well as fewer DPF regenerations, which are a huge waste of fuel, and worry about regulating NOX standards further down stream with the Exhaust fluid cleaning things up instead for NOX requirements. Saving a lot more fuel more than offsets cost of DEF, but probably not if the DEF pump and heater system to heat the DEF fluid to the proper operating temps to function,is taken into consideration.

[mich800]

capsfloyd wrote:
GM and Ford would not address the epa problem . Dodge would not had changed till 2016. The government came out and said " Dodge would have a unfair advantage not having to do DEF " .
Dodge had to change over in 2013

:h GM and Ford utilized DEF to meet the higher EPA standards. Ram took an additional year due to some credits. So what is this problem GM and Ford were not addressing? And the unfair advantage for Ram would have been worse fuel economy than the others.

[capsfloyd]

GM and Ford would not address the epa problem . Dodge would not had changed till 2016. The government came out and said " Dodge would have a unfair advantage not having to do DEF " .
Dodge had to change over in 2013

[v10superduty]

dreeder wrote:

I think the value of the DEF equipped trucks will tank to the point of it being hard to get rid of them.

In my many years at dealership, I saw many weird and crazy reasons/justifications that people came up with as to why they should "buy" a new vehicle.. :h
Loved ever one of them...:B

I must say however, this is one strange reason to come up with to "not buy" a new truck. :W

[DirtyOil]

Your post brought back memories of when gas went lead-free. My Studebaker has suffered, guess I should have driven it more often, but everything else "made the trip". But there are still some options left for my Studebaker even after all these years. I think it will be the something similar with DEF.

Now if I can find a good set of points and a distributor cap ...

And remember when they switched "back" to lead free gas we paid more for it!? My dad always drove Studebakers... until they stopped then he switched over to AMC.. ah Studebakers always ahead of everyone else! 🙂

[crcr]

Huntindog wrote:

crcr wrote:
Question about DEF:

Right now we have a pre-emissions diesel, but one day may upgrade to a later model. We live in Southern AZ, where it gets extremely hot in the summer. Our diesel truck is pretty much a dedicated tow truck. We put 6000-7000 miles per year on the truck, but between camping trips, it mostly sits in the driveway, often for 3 weeks or more at a time. My question is, if we had a DEF equipped truck, given the high heat environment here, would the DEF sitting in the tank be at risk of going bad?

High temps will cause the DEF to degrade faster. So if you are a light user in a high temp environment, just don't fill the tank all the way.
I am in Phoenix, and that is what I do. When the warning comes on, I put a 2.5 gallon jug in, and drive it till the warning comes on again. Usually 2500-3000 miles later. It is actually easier to deal with this way, as I know that the entire 2.5 gallons will fit in the tank without it overflowing and making a mess.

I got my 2011 back in 2010, and DEF really hasn't been that big of a deal.

Thanks!

[Fordlover]

TucsonJim wrote:
I know these new fangled Windows based PCs are just a fad. So I'm going to keep using DOS until something better comes along.

You use electricity? Too risky for me, we still light the house with oil lamps and cook over the open fire. This message was actually relayed using homing pigeons and smoke signals. :W

[Huntindog]

crcr wrote:
Question about DEF:

Right now we have a pre-emissions diesel, but one day may upgrade to a later model. We live in Southern AZ, where it gets extremely hot in the summer. Our diesel truck is pretty much a dedicated tow truck. We put 6000-7000 miles per year on the truck, but between camping trips, it mostly sits in the driveway, often for 3 weeks or more at a time. My question is, if we had a DEF equipped truck, given the high heat environment here, would the DEF sitting in the tank be at risk of going bad?

High temps will cause the DEF to degrade faster. So if you are a light user in a high temp environment, just don't fill the tank all the way.
I am in Phoenix, and that is what I do. When the warning comes on, I put a 2.5 gallon jug in, and drive it till the warning comes on again. Usually 2500-3000 miles later. It is actually easier to deal with this way, as I know that the entire 2.5 gallons will fit in the tank without it overflowing and making a mess.

I got my 2011 back in 2010, and DEF really hasn't been that big of a deal.

[crcr]

Question about DEF:

Right now we have a pre-emissions diesel, but one day may upgrade to a later model. We live in Southern AZ, where it gets extremely hot in the summer. Our diesel truck is pretty much a dedicated tow truck. We put 6000-7000 miles per year on the truck, but between camping trips, it mostly sits in the driveway, often for 3 weeks or more at a time. My question is, if we had a DEF equipped truck, given the high heat environment here, would the DEF sitting in the tank be at risk of going bad?

[TakingThe5th]

Your post brought back memories of when gas went lead-free. My Studebaker has suffered, guess I should have driven it more often, but everything else "made the trip". But there are still some options left for my Studebaker even after all these years. I think it will be the something similar with DEF.

Now if I can find a good set of points and a distributor cap ...

[mich800]

kaydeejay wrote:

thomasmnile wrote:
DEF is treating products of combustion as I understand it, specifically oxides of nitrogen. No chemist or engineer, but seems like whatever is in diesel fuel that produces NOX in combustion would have to be removed from the fuel.

And on further reading, NOX formation seems to be related to high temperature combustion processes, which must be the major challenge in cleaning diesel exhaust.

The only way to eliminate the formation of NOx is to remove Nitrogen from the air!
Maybe if we all put it in our tires it would help!:R

Even though it's fairly new here, DEF has been in use in Europe for years.
Do you REALLY think the FEDS would allow companies to stop producing the stuff and make thousands of trucks non-runners??

Actually yes I could see that happening. If new technology came out making this crop of DEF emission vehicles comparatively dirty who knows what the government would do. They had the buyback program where they killed the engines so they could no longer be used. I would say the likelihood is very remote but on the other hand I would not be shocked either.

[larry_barnhart]

kaydeejay wrote:

thomasmnile wrote:
DEF is treating products of combustion as I understand it, specifically oxides of nitrogen. No chemist or engineer, but seems like whatever is in diesel fuel that produces NOX in combustion would have to be removed from the fuel.

And on further reading, NOX formation seems to be related to high temperature combustion processes, which must be the major challenge in cleaning diesel exhaust.

The only way to eliminate the formation of NOx is to remove Nitrogen from the air!
Maybe if we all put it in our tires it would help!:R

Even though it's fairly new here, DEF has been in use in Europe for years.
Do you REALLY think the FEDS would allow companies to stop producing the stuff and make thousands of trucks non-runners??

feds thinking??? not the current model.

chevman

[Huntindog]

BB_TX wrote:

dreeder wrote:
.................
which could possibly effect resale of the vehicle down the road due to the additional fuel system. ...........

DEF is not an additional fuel system. The fluid is injected into the exhaust flow at the SCR to reduce pollutants.

DEF explained

I can explain it easy.
There are basically two types of emissions in diesels that are problems.
NoOX, and particlates.
There are two ways to lower the NOX. LOTs of EGR to lower the combustion chamber temps, and lower the NOX formation in the engine (this lowers MPGs, power, and causes things like the EGR cooler and turbo to get choked with soot} or tuning the motor for best performance, then treating the NOX with an after treatment in thje exhaust (SCR). This is what the DEF is for.

Whether DEF is used or not, both systems use a DPF for particulate emissions... The interaction part has to do with THE DEF systems being able to use LESS EGR, so the DPF can go longer between regens.

[Sport45]

K Charles wrote:
"engineers are entirely to smart not to be working on ways to simplify the emission"

Not true, they have been making emissions more complicated for the last 50 years.

But at the same time they've made the powertrain cleaner and more powerful.

I'll take clean/powerful and more complicated over smoke/smog and simpler any day of the week.

If it was only one engine, no big deal. But when you consider the many thousands of engines out there it makes a difference. Gasoline engines are much more complex than they used to be too. But they are also much cleaner and more powerful than ever.