Thinking about Def

[Targa]

I know that this has been proven to be a much more reliable way to manage the emissions systems than on my 09' pre def Cummins for example but what happens in a couple of years when/if the manufacturers can come up with a reliable way to manage the emissions without the need of an additional fuel system? I think the value of the DEF equipped trucks will tank to the point of it being hard to get rid of them. This is in my head every time I try to give a diesel another go. I do think this will happen, the engineers are entirely to smart not to be working on ways to simplify the emission systems to make them more reliable and user friendly, knowing that they would have a huge grip on the diesel market.

[mdamerell]

Huntindog wrote:

mdamerell wrote:

APT wrote:
The only people complaining about DEF systems are the ones who never had it.

Not a fan REGEN systems in general. I've have driven trucks with DEF systems since they hit the market. Most issues we have with our trucks are Regen System related. Either the DEF dosing valve malfunctions, the sensor tubes or DPF filters in the EGR system clogging with soot or any other list of electrical/valve issues.

DEF has nothing to do with the regen system. Two separate systems for two different types of emissions... They do interact to a point, but even the pre DEF trucks use DPF, and they are less reliable that the DEF/DPF ones

You're splitting hairs. While technically The EGR is the front half of the exhaust system and the DEF/catalytic converter of the last half of the exhaust system it's all EPA's garbage that messes up an engine that ran reliably for years and now spends ridiculous amounts of time in the shop. Stop by a heavy duty diesel shop and ask how much business is related to exhaust system issues. It's driven up the shop costs for all trucking company.

Enjoy your new engine I'll rebuild my older engine and come out ahead.

[blofgren]

I agree that you're really overthinking this issue. I am going on one year of ownership of my DEF equipped Ram and I have only topped up the DEF tank twice, and it is still on full after the last top up which I did late last summer. I also rarely think of it because it is such a non issue.

I say go get that 6 speed Ram, drive and enjoy it and forget worrying about it. You too will love it and have no regrets!

[FishOnOne]

I wouldn't own a DPF equipped diesel without DEF.

[Dayle1]

Put aside the specific item and it's future changes plus the impacts on resale. How many of us would not buy a 6 sp auto for fear next yr.'s 8 sp would impact resale. Or today's built in nav. system because a newer one will probably be available in a year or two? While tow vehicles will probably be last, we are right on the cusp of major changes in accident avoidance, auto parking and self steering. Should we wait? When it comes to these improvements or improvements in diesel emissions systems, you can be sure none will be free. So, the opposite 'fear' would be, yes a much better vehicle in the future, but it is out of my budget. Worry is like sitting in a rocking chair, it keeps you busy but doesn't get you any where.

[Powerdude]

goducks10 wrote:
After owning a non DEF truck I'd go DEF in a heartbeat. Like wintersun said, less soot and also less regens. Regens kill your oil life. That's why some delete their non DEF trucks. Oil change intervals for DEF trucks are as a whole longer than non DEF trucks. One extra oil change buys a lot of DEF.
Pre emission diesels have the best of both I guess. No DEF, no regens and better mpg's.

Yep. Get a pre-emission non-DEF engined truck, rebuild it, and you'll still have 20k left over in your pocket.

Every time they add a new emission requirement, price goes up by $5k.

[goducks10]

After owning a non DEF truck I'd go DEF in a heartbeat. Like wintersun said, less soot and also less regens. Regens kill your oil life. That's why some delete their non DEF trucks. Oil change intervals for DEF trucks are as a whole longer than non DEF trucks. One extra oil change buys a lot of DEF.
Pre emission diesels have the best of both I guess. No DEF, no regens and better mpg's.

[wintersun]

100% of the newer big rigs and commercial trucks with diesel engines are setup for DEF. With passenger cars there is an effort to develop a new type of direct injection that will meet emissions requirements but these require a very special filter so at this time they put out 100x the emissions of a standard diesel and another magnitude more soot and NOx than the DEF equipped trucks.

Figure on about a gallon of DEF for every 1000 miles you drive and 750 miles when towing and you will be in the ballpark. DEF is actually good at minimizing soot buildup in the crankcase motor oil which is why it is considered a good thing by fleet operators who are professionals.

[goducks10]

DEF or no DEF is the least of my worries when owning a diesel truck. I worry (well not really much) more about getting water in my fuel than whether my non DEF truck is going to be desired in 2-10 years. DEF or any emission concern is like wondering whether the weather's going to be good on such and such weekend in 2017. It's all out of my control.

[ScottG]

APT wrote:
The only people complaining about DEF systems are the ones who never had it.

This exactly.
The DEF thing reminds me of the doom and gloom types that said unleaded gas was the end of the world.
It just isn't a big deal and truckers that run new diesels don't give it a second thought.

[kaydeejay]

thomasmnile wrote:
DEF is treating products of combustion as I understand it, specifically oxides of nitrogen. No chemist or engineer, but seems like whatever is in diesel fuel that produces NOX in combustion would have to be removed from the fuel.

And on further reading, NOX formation seems to be related to high temperature combustion processes, which must be the major challenge in cleaning diesel exhaust.

The only way to eliminate the formation of NOx is to remove Nitrogen from the air!
Maybe if we all put it in our tires it would help!:R

Even though it's fairly new here, DEF has been in use in Europe for years.
Do you REALLY think the FEDS would allow companies to stop producing the stuff and make thousands of trucks non-runners??

[APT]

dreeder wrote:
Some are missing the point but most seem to get what I am saying and that it has nothing to do with the useage of the DEF but the longevity of the system itself as an emission control device which could possibly effect resale of the vehicle down the road due to the additional fuel system. Thanks for the responses, Darrin

There have not been any issues that would cause engineers to find a different solution to diesel NOx emmisions. While DEF equipped 3/4 and 1-ton trucks have only had it since 2011, there are other vehicles that used it back to 2008 I believe. Many vehicles with 200k+ miles. DPF in general seems to have more long term issues but I don''t see that going away anytime soon either.

[thomasmnile]

DEF is treating products of combustion as I understand it, specifically oxides of nitrogen. No chemist or engineer, but seems like whatever is in diesel fuel that produces NOX in combustion would have to be removed from the fuel.

And on further reading, NOX formation seems to be related to high temperature combustion processes, which must be the major challenge in cleaning diesel exhaust.

[BB_TX]

dreeder wrote:
.................
which could possibly effect resale of the vehicle down the road due to the additional fuel system. ...........

DEF is not an additional fuel system. The fluid is injected into the exhaust flow at the SCR to reduce pollutants.

DEF explained

[Huntindog]

mdamerell wrote:

APT wrote:
The only people complaining about DEF systems are the ones who never had it.

Not a fan REGEN systems in general. I've have driven trucks with DEF systems since they hit the market. Most issues we have with our trucks are Regen System related. Either the DEF dosing valve malfunctions, the sensor tubes or DPF filters in the EGR system clogging with soot or any other list of electrical/valve issues.

DEF has nothing to do with the regen system. Two separate systems for two different types of emissions... They do interact to a point, but even the pre DEF trucks use DPF, and they are less reliable that the DEF/DPF ones

[Huntindog]

dreeder wrote:
Some are missing the point but most seem to get what I am saying and that it has nothing to do with the useage of the DEF but the longevity of the system itself as an emission control device which could possibly effect resale of the vehicle down the road due to the additional fuel system. Thanks for the responses, Darrin

While anything is possible, I doubt that DEF is going away anytime soon. Ford/GM did not invent the system, it has been used for quite awhile in other countries and industries.

Now the Diesel EGR systems can use quite a bit of improvement... In fact even I have an idea that would make it much better... On par with the reliability of the gas engine systems... So I am sure that some smart engineer has seen the same solution... It is so simple that a cave man could do it.