Towing capacity vs max cargo weight rating

[ognend]

Hello all!

Can someone clarify something for me? If a truck's max gooseneck trailer loaded weight is 15,100 lbs (as per manufacturer towing guide - it is a Ford) - how can the max cargo weight rating be 1792 lbs?

If I understand correctly, the max cargo weight rating is all the weight that can be put into/onto the truck (passengers, their things) PLUS the, for example, weight of the gooseneck pin of the loaded, 15,100 lbs trailer.

Ford's towing guide says: "Cargo Weight Rating shown in chart is maximum allowable, assuming weight of a base vehicle with required camper option content and a 150-lb. passenger at each available seating position".

Does this mean the allowed payload is AFTER 5 passengers? if I removed 3 passengers, does that add 450 lbs to payload capacity (max allowed cargo weight as per Ford)?

In addition, what gooseneck trailer weighs 15,100 lbs (max loaded trailer weight spec as per Ford) but only 1792 on the hitch (as per max allowed cargo weight)? This would imply that only 12% of the loaded trailer weight is on the hitch. Does this sound right?
I know this is not the case for my loaded horse trailer with living quarters (but then horse trailers with living quarters tend to be front heavy).

Am I understanding this right?

Thanks!

[ognend]

philh wrote:
you will not find one single OEM Engineer that will have this conversation with you. Legal liabilities to mfg are extremely high, and that engineer would be fired on the spot.

I gave you some suggestions to do your own research. What did you find doing a comparison between 1T and 3/4T. Crawl under the trucks and compare part numbers between same model year trucks.

Good suggestions, thanks. I don't have access to many '16 Powerstrokes in different variants (250/350) unfortunately, just my own. But, I am not giving up...

[philh]

you will not find one single OEM Engineer that will have this conversation with you. Legal liabilities to mfg are extremely high, and that engineer would be fired on the spot.

I gave you some suggestions to do your own research. What did you find doing a comparison between 1T and 3/4T. Crawl under the trucks and compare part numbers between same model year trucks.

[ognend]

JIMNLIN wrote:
Ognend....gvwr and gvwr based payload sticker numbers are always a hot item on rv websites. This from another rv website weight thread .....

grindstone01
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: FULL TIMERS
Posts: 2,325
Registry
*** I'm a retired auto engineer and Marketing has a big impact on GVWR. As a engineer, it was our job to make sure the frame, brakes and powertrain components were designed well above the GVWR ratings that Marketing wanted, so we would design in a safety factor for each component. You don't really think we would build a truck and then test it to determine what the surprise GVWR number should be!
Axle ratings are also well above the GVWR rating and in commercial vehicles, axle ratings are the pay load determining factor and even they have a big safety factor designed into them.
It would be unusual for a lawyer to accept a overweight case unless it was grossly over the safety factor weight and even then a vehicle manufacture would not share that info because it is not a hard fast number that will break if one more pound is added.
There are many videos of million pound plus loads being moved by trucks across country. It's all about the axles.***

Your on the right track...so enjoy the truck/trailer combo. We really like our old '03 2500 Dodge/Cummins HO NV5600 manual tranny pulling our even older '97 11200-11400 lb rv trailer all over the USA.

I wish I never sold my '06 Duramax - best and stoutest truck I ever owned. I have been trying to find an old IDI or pre-2003 TD to learn on, but boy, people are asking crazy money for them 🙂

[ognend]

philh wrote:
You want to exceed payload capacity, that's your business.

I don't want to exceed the REAL payload capacity but I need to know what this REAL number is. I am questioning whether the number on the sticker is a REAL number or a number made to fit a GVWR limiting rating. In other words, is the sticker payload capacity just made up to make up the difference to 10,000 GVWR or is it a REAL number based on the ACTUAL components of the vehicle I own.

philh wrote:

Are you aware of all the suspension, tires, and axle differences between a higher capacity truck and your truck? It used to be, and it's been a long time since I looked, the 1 ton spring is slightly different to the 3/4 ton, with an extra leaf. I also know there are lower capacity tires available on both models. You also have to deal with GVWR differences between 1T and 3/4T. I believe the rear axle is the same for the same ratio.

Instead of someone listing POSSIBLE differences, it would be nice if they could list the ACTUAL differences. Then we can have an ACTUAL conversation? In fact, it would not really be a conversation. If you can list the differences and explain to me why my truck can only take 2184lbs on the rear axle, I am selling it tomorrow, it's not like I was born in it.... 🙂

philh wrote:

You're convinced you're absolutely right and don't think Ford measured things correctly. I will tell you that most OEM engineers are generally top of the heap, getting recruited from all the top schools.

I am not convinced in anything but it would be nice if we could sit down with the ACTUAL algorithm used at Ford to determine the payload capacity number. I find it extremely suspicious that my weight rating is EXACTLY 2184 lbs, for example.

Look, I own my truck outright. As per KBB, I could probably get $50K for it. I could take that $50K and go get the new 7.3L Godzilla Ford or the new 6.6L Chevy gasser. Both are in the 3500-3700 lbs payload ratings, way more than what I need. They would be new trucks, with warranties etc. I would even probably have money left over to take the missus somewhere nice - most of the Chevys I would consider are in the $42-45K range, for example. But I need to know that I am going to be jumping through all these hoops for a reason.

Thanks!

[JIMNLIN]

Ognend....gvwr and gvwr based payload sticker numbers are always a hot item on rv websites. This from another rv website weight thread .....

grindstone01
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: FULL TIMERS
Posts: 2,325
Registry
*** I'm a retired auto engineer and Marketing has a big impact on GVWR. As a engineer, it was our job to make sure the frame, brakes and powertrain components were designed well above the GVWR ratings that Marketing wanted, so we would design in a safety factor for each component. You don't really think we would build a truck and then test it to determine what the surprise GVWR number should be!
Axle ratings are also well above the GVWR rating and in commercial vehicles, axle ratings are the pay load determining factor and even they have a big safety factor designed into them.
It would be unusual for a lawyer to accept a overweight case unless it was grossly over the safety factor weight and even then a vehicle manufacture would not share that info because it is not a hard fast number that will break if one more pound is added.
There are many videos of million pound plus loads being moved by trucks across country. It's all about the axles.***

Your on the right track...so enjoy the truck/trailer combo. We really like our old '03 2500 Dodge/Cummins HO NV5600 manual tranny pulling our even older '97 11200-11400 lb rv trailer all over the USA.

[philh]

I'm one of the last people I would consider to be a member of the weight police... but here I am.

You want to exceed payload capacity, that's your business.

Are you aware of all the suspension, tires, and axle differences between a higher capacity truck and your truck? It used to be, and it's been a long time since I looked, the 1 ton spring is slightly different to the 3/4 ton, with an extra leaf. I also know there are lower capacity tires available on both models. You also have to deal with GVWR differences between 1T and 3/4T. I believe the rear axle is the same for the same ratio.

You're convinced you're absolutely right and don't think Ford measured things correctly. I will tell you that most OEM engineers are generally top of the heap, getting recruited from all the top schools.

I will also suggest that OEM's sometimes do things for marketing reasons too. Ask me about 2007-2009(?) Dodge Charger RT and the messed up torque mapping pulling a ridiculous amount of torque at low RPM, that was easy to fix with a tuner. It was done to create more perceived separation between RT and SRT.

You want to tow with the truck then go tow.

[ognend]

BenK wrote:
The OP asks a technical question that requires a deep technical & engineering process answer, then dismisses it as too technical...only wanting an answer that fits what they want to hear...to which think they don’t truly know what they want to hear...

Done with trying to help and blocking this one...bye...

If you can point out where I rejected your deeply technical answer, I will gladly apologize. Thank you.

[Cummins12V98]

"I'm going sailing in some 15-25 knot winds, 2-4'waved here in puget sound"


Hey be safe and have some fun!!! Hope to be out there middle of next month.

[Cummins12V98]

"Sometimes I think they look at the payload on the F-450 and thats around 4800 lbs. We all know that truck can haul significantly more. But some might say "well my single wheel truck is rated for 4200 lbs why would I need an F450?""
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Simply put the 14k GVWR is just a number. Only thing it's there for is to stay under a Commercial Classification. 450/3500/350 DRW's are limited to 14k on paper.

If I kept my unloaded front axle weight of 5,250# and loaded my rear axle to it's SAE 9,750# I would be at 15k, how the HE!! is that possible?????

I do run 9,750# on the rear plus 5,800# on the front ao basically I am at 16k. Am I overloaded, NOPE as I am licensed for whatever my weight is.

No Idea what my cargo capacity is and really don't care as I am adding 6k pin plus other stuff and am at or under my SAE axle ratings.

So bottom line load up to your front and rear axle ratings and have tonnage to cover it and carry on.

[blt2ski]

Impotent!? Hmm.. is that not when little guy does not work?!?!?

I'm going sailing in some 15-25 knot winds, 2-4'waved here in puget sound, I'll deal with collateral damage after words!

But, the ford base weights if like GM, final weight hast be plus minus 5 or 10 lbs of ALL options added at the end. This is tighter than most scales troops,or other local scales use at 20 lb increments.
Reality, at least where I'm at, got new registration for my new to me 1500, I'm legal to 8000 lbs. Door sticker is 7000 or so. My navistar is good to 26000, door sticker and axl ratings give me 18200. Been pulled over at 27000. No over weight ticket. Just a 10 day up registration to 28000. $15 or so. ooohhhh, that hurt me pocket book! In real world, door sticker means squat!

Marty

[BenK]

The OP asks a technical question that requires a deep technical & engineering process answer, then dismisses it as too technical...only wanting an answer that fits what they want to hear...to which think they don’t truly know what they want to hear...

Done with trying to help and blocking this one...bye...

[ognend]

I am the OP.

This all started with my own epiphany that you can have (on paper) a towing capacity of 15,000 lbs but the payload capacity (on paper/sticker) of only 2000 lbs or so. Since some trailers (mostly horse trailers with living quarters in front) are front heavy, it seems to me contradictory to have a vehicle that can tow behind it X lbs but at the point of attachment only take 1/7th of the lbs.

So, I am faced with two choices:

1. "Obey" the sticker, sell the truck and buy one that has a bigger sticker!

or

2. Try to understand how the payload capacity number is arrived at and after doing so, make an educated decision about what to do next.

Someone pointed me to the RAWR - take your truck to the scales and get the proper payload capacity number scheme. I did so, months after I started the thread and by my calculations I actually have just the payload capacity in the latter scheme to haul the horse trailer I want.

Then some jack * ss piled onto my revelation and started writing short replies about how I am picking numbers out of a hat (he must have thought were witty and insightful - they were not but they spurred on 3 more pages of discussion. Sigh.).

P.S. I do not live and breathe the realm of trucks and towing and how they are certified etc. I am just a consumer. However, I feel that if I will "consume" a $60,000 vehicle, I might as well try to understand what, where, how and why. I was initially also worried about the legal aspect of the "am I overweight" equation but am no more...
P.P.S. In my "journey", I have considered various options - buying a new gasser with the money I could get from my not-so-perfect diesel; buying an older IDI/TDI diesel from the pre-2000 era, so on and so on. However, I figured that right now I have a truck that works - and I may as well try to figure out if it will work for my application.

[BenK]

I don’t understand the OP either...

If the rating is too low by whatever amount...bugs him, then he has two choices

#1...hire a PE/ME to redesign & certify the ratings the OP wants. Then pay a certification lab approved by DOT to re-certify & label the truck. That will most likely cost close to buying a truck with higher ratings.

#2...by a truck with higher ratings and think would cost less than #1

Then the metrics of a Product Design team for a multi-billion corporation.

Most are matrix management. Meaning the Project or Program manager chairing that design team has few on their direct staff, but assigned representatives from all over the corporation to become direct members of the team.

Each will then have either direct or dotted lined folks working for that Design team representative. For each discipline (service, mechanical, electrical, electronic, system, drive train, suspension, etc, etc) can have total of thousands working on that Product Design Team...most not directly working for the PM...nor directly on the team.

From all over the corporation meaning representatives from : Service, legal, marketing, production, central engineering, agency compliance, packaging (shipping), and a BIG ETC...

Each has a weighted vote in the design. Largest percentage is in their area of responsibility, but a good PM will allow kibitzing on others area of responsibility.

Most weighted for the topic on this thread will...or should be legal and service. They can stop the whole thing, which then goes to everyone’s executive. As first ship date is always on their bonus formula.

The super computer simulations will spit out a bottom line number, based on the algorithms dialed in for the simulation. Some corporations still have actual and real world testing (the old oval track where they run millions of miles on test mules)

Then the negotiations with team members begins (should have been an on going if a good PM...poor PM’s will wait till the last when it would be costly to fix anything).

The larger the team...the wackier these numbers can become.

This goes back to the above #1...few PE/ME’s would do this re-certification. As their insurance and lively hood would be on the line for a trivial change (trivial in the why, but major in actual doing it).

Service & legal were always the overly conservative members of my design teams. Marketing/sales were always demanding the most far out numbers because they have to be “King of the mountain”...

For us outside of the OEM Product Design Team...never going to know what’ these numbers are based on...how much margin...what type of margin and another big ETC...as their algorithm(s) are part of their secret sauce...

Edit...forgot that production has their own Product Team and their ME’s (manufacturing engineers)...where they change ratings. Normally they are supposed to run that through the original product design team, but that is something often dropping through the system and never reviewed

Also, if the corporation is self certifying...the internal regulatory department will NOT allow much fudging, as if that corporation loses their self certification...that goes all the way up to the CEO...similar to a ‘line down’ situation...

Always worried some bean counter who doesn’t know how things work will kibosh that reporting system...to edict “ship it”...whereby those in the process will madly email CYA’s to everyone that they were told to ship it...

Part of what these bean counter exec’s don’t understand is that some countries actually enforce safety and will put that exec on their ‘arrest at the border list’

[MFL]

Cummins12V98 wrote:
Jerry you painted a vivid and beautiful picture with your explanation. :B

Thankyou Sir! A possible sticky Marty??? Sure would make me feel impotent! (sp)?

Jerry