Towing in the Rockies - Towing Capacity Safety Margin?

[travelrider73]

I'm researching both a tow vehicle and a 5er combo and want to make sure that whatever we end up with as a tow vehicle will do the job no matter where we travel. The steepest grades I can think of are in the Rockies, hence the title of this topic.

So, how much of a safety margin between the manufacturer's stated towing capacity and what you actually purchase would you want to have in order to be comfortable with occasional steep grades?

Note that we are not planning to full time in the Rockies, and we will certainly spend some time on flat land, but I don't want to be climbing at 10mph up-hill and out of control downhill when we run into these steep grades. So, I guess we'll need a real jake brake too.

2013 Ford F350 Crew Cab Dually 4x4 - 23,200 5er towing capacity. How much GVWR trailer would you actually be comfortable towing in steep grades? Would you be ok with a 19,000lb GVWR trailer?

2013 Dodge RAM 3500 Crew Cab Dually 4x4 - 28,900 5er towing capacity. Would THIS be enough for the 19,000lb GVWR trailer?

These are just examples. I haven't actually picked a 19000lb 5er yet. The question really is - how much safety margin should I have?

I'm also NOT going to end up driving a big semi tractor. We want a normal pickup to be a daily driver when we're parked and a 1 ton dually is about as big as we want to deal with.

If we have to compromise, it'll probably be on buying a somewhat lighter 5er.

Thanks!!!

[travelrider73]

45Ricochet wrote:
IMO all three will be fine power wise, it's the braking I'd be shopping for OP. 1100 degree rotors just seem to hot for my liking's.

Stopping is exactly my concern. I'm starting to think about moving up to a Medium Duty to get better brakes among other things. (I just started a separate thread about Medium Duty) - Looking for thoughts on the best ones - C4500/5500 maybe?

[PA12DRVR]

FWIW....

2006 F350 (with the dreaded 6.0!) with GVWR of 13,000 and GCVWR of 26,000 (IIRC)

Pulled a 38' 5th wheel all over New Mexico, Utah, Colorado, and North Carolina (different trips..). Went on State Highways and side roads whilst in any given state.

IIRC, GVWR was about 13500 and GCVWR was about 24,500. Everything towed fine. No problems climbing or slowing down/stopping. Not always fun particularly in the mountains of NC with that big-a** long rig, but no issues with getup quick or go-down slow.

[bmanning]

I finally got around to reading the King of Beasts results.

Two takeaways:

1) Amazing how close acceleration performance is...

2) Very impressive overall showing for the Ram; the engineers assigned to the braking & suspension systems on that chassis must've enjoyed a nice pat on the back, deservedly so.

Ford will answer in 2015, GM will step up soon I'm sure, and the bar will continue to be raised higher and higher.

The combination of capability and creature comforts this current generation of trucks offer is simply off the charts.

[45Ricochet]

mpierce wrote:
I have a 2014 3500 RAM DRW. Also a 19K toyhauler. The truck handles it great! The EB is fantastic! Most, if not all, reviews say the Cummins/RAM EB is the best one out there. That truck WILL handle the 19K trailer fine. Get 3.73 rears. Unless in big hills all the time, the 4.10 is overkill. 3.42 will have it shifting more. 3.73 good compromise.

IMO all three will be fine power wise, it's the braking I'd be shopping for OP. 1100 degree rotors just seem to hot for my liking's.

[jus2shy]

I honestly wouldn't worry about too much margin in the pulling department. but you will notice that the "Whoah" is what you should really worry about. I know that Ford has a fix coming in 2015 with a 2nd gen 6.7 motor. But RAM has the solution already. Check out the article http://special-reports.pickuptrucks.com/king-of-beasts.html

Note that they pulled these vehicles over the same exact area that you are thinking of. And the Ford is technically in a higher class but when you look over the specs, these vehicles are basically equivalent.

[whsk]

forgot to mention 3.73 rears-tows great!-whsk

[whsk]

the ram web site has the towing specs on it (conservative)-new 3500 will tow any 5th wheel you have in mind-just finished a 2588 mile trip (Pa to Az)with 5th wheel in tow (loaded to the gills)-no problems!-very stable even in high wind-2013 Ram cc lb 4x4 6 speed stick-whsk

[wilber1]

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

Terryallan wrote:

travelrider73 wrote:

Terryallan wrote:
Honestly. You can SAFELY tow right up to the manufacturers posted capacity. They did the research, and math. No need for you to redo it, and lower the capacities the engineers developed.

Well, there's a skeptic in me that wonders how much influence the marketing department has over the engineering department at the Big 3. It seems like they have plenty of reason to push the limits so they can advertise that they have the biggest baddest beast on the road. If everyone pushes a few hundred pounds here and there, all of a sudden there's a tiny asterisk at the bottom of their towing claims... I know, they can't push it too much for fear of a huge lawsuit, but I suspect they push it a little.

In reality. They come down on the very conservative side. Those capacities are not any kind of law. They are the weights that the manufacturer has warranted the truck to carry / tow. In other words. stay in the factory recommendation. And they will pay to fix it, should it break. Go over, and the warranty is void.
So knowing that. They set the weights less than the real capability of the vehicle, to save them having to pay for burnt trannys and things.

So knowing that. They set the weights less than the real capability of the vehicle, to save them having to pay for burnt trannys and things.

:h How do they know how big of a trailer you have been towing? :h

Maybe when the tow truck comes and they see that mega 5er hooked up to your 2500, or maybe they just hope most people will have enough sense to follow their limits because they don't want to be broke down in the middle of nowhere.

[E_J_push_n_wind]

My dad is a member of this forum (Diesel page). Dad used to be an OTR driver for many years as both an owner operator as well as driving a company truck whoever he may have worked for. He was also in the U.S. Navy as a diesel mechanic before he retired after 20 years. He could tell you pretty much anything you want to know about diesels, past and present. Anyhow, he thought this forum to be pretty knowledgeable. I hope this helps FWIW.

[Terryallan]

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

Terryallan wrote:

travelrider73 wrote:

Terryallan wrote:
Honestly. You can SAFELY tow right up to the manufacturers posted capacity. They did the research, and math. No need for you to redo it, and lower the capacities the engineers developed.

Well, there's a skeptic in me that wonders how much influence the marketing department has over the engineering department at the Big 3. It seems like they have plenty of reason to push the limits so they can advertise that they have the biggest baddest beast on the road. If everyone pushes a few hundred pounds here and there, all of a sudden there's a tiny asterisk at the bottom of their towing claims... I know, they can't push it too much for fear of a huge lawsuit, but I suspect they push it a little.

In reality. They come down on the very conservative side. Those capacities are not any kind of law. They are the weights that the manufacturer has warranted the truck to carry / tow. In other words. stay in the factory recommendation. And they will pay to fix it, should it break. Go over, and the warranty is void.
So knowing that. They set the weights less than the real capability of the vehicle, to save them having to pay for burnt trannys and things.

So knowing that. They set the weights less than the real capability of the vehicle, to save them having to pay for burnt trannys and things.

:h How do they know how big of a trailer you have been towing? :h

It doesn't matter if they know how heavy you tow. They have set the bar low enough to keep damage to a minimum. Saving them money on covered repairs. Most people try to stay inside the factory capacities.

[Turtle_n_Peeps]

Terryallan wrote:

travelrider73 wrote:

Terryallan wrote:
Honestly. You can SAFELY tow right up to the manufacturers posted capacity. They did the research, and math. No need for you to redo it, and lower the capacities the engineers developed.

Well, there's a skeptic in me that wonders how much influence the marketing department has over the engineering department at the Big 3. It seems like they have plenty of reason to push the limits so they can advertise that they have the biggest baddest beast on the road. If everyone pushes a few hundred pounds here and there, all of a sudden there's a tiny asterisk at the bottom of their towing claims... I know, they can't push it too much for fear of a huge lawsuit, but I suspect they push it a little.

In reality. They come down on the very conservative side. Those capacities are not any kind of law. They are the weights that the manufacturer has warranted the truck to carry / tow. In other words. stay in the factory recommendation. And they will pay to fix it, should it break. Go over, and the warranty is void.
So knowing that. They set the weights less than the real capability of the vehicle, to save them having to pay for burnt trannys and things.

So knowing that. They set the weights less than the real capability of the vehicle, to save them having to pay for burnt trannys and things.

:h How do they know how big of a trailer you have been towing? :h

[Terryallan]

skipnchar wrote:
Interstate highways have the same grade standard in the Rockies as in the rest of the country. 06% is the grade standard to allow relatively easy access to commercial trucking. There are very FEW exceptions where this is exceeded, and then only for a short distance. State highways may be as steep as 08% and be within standards though 6 and 7 are MUCH more common. You would pretty much have to go LOOKING for grades steeper than 8% though they are out there but not on major roads.
Good luck / Skip

Skip. Depends on what you consider a main road. The main road between Little Switzerland, and Marion NC, 226A. Has 14.9, and 15.7 degree grades. The main road between Cherokee, and Maggie Valley NC has 9.

Around here. The interstates, are the flattest roads

[Terryallan]

travelrider73 wrote:

Terryallan wrote:
Honestly. You can SAFELY tow right up to the manufacturers posted capacity. They did the research, and math. No need for you to redo it, and lower the capacities the engineers developed.

Well, there's a skeptic in me that wonders how much influence the marketing department has over the engineering department at the Big 3. It seems like they have plenty of reason to push the limits so they can advertise that they have the biggest baddest beast on the road. If everyone pushes a few hundred pounds here and there, all of a sudden there's a tiny asterisk at the bottom of their towing claims... I know, they can't push it too much for fear of a huge lawsuit, but I suspect they push it a little.

In reality. They come down on the very conservative side. Those capacities are not any kind of law. They are the weights that the manufacturer has warranted the truck to carry / tow. In other words. stay in the factory recommendation. And they will pay to fix it, should it break. Go over, and the warranty is void.
So knowing that. They set the weights less than the real capability of the vehicle, to save them having to pay for burnt trannys and things.

[blt2ski]

The skeptic in me is why is the same rig with a 3.42 gear set safe to say 20K gcwr, but a 3.73 to 22K, and 4.10 to 24K? Reality from a safety stand point, ie from if you hit me, kill me, I am just as dead with you hitting me at 20K as if you hit me at 24K lbs. The issue from a tow rating, is can you get a rig going on a given hill % grade at said 20 vs 22 vs 24K lbs. If this amount is say 15%, but you are going up 20% grades at the rated gcwr, you will stall out! Said rig for YOUR use, should not be rated to that wt amount, it should have been less.

Or it could be speed achieved on a 6% freeway grade, ie over 45 mph. BUT, some things that can vary this, ie frontal area. Many ratings do not include this factor, or if they do, they do not include it in the rating. Some frontal areas can pull easier than not. Compare an airstream TT to a typical fleetwood. Aluminum sided trailer, whiles lighter, need more HP to pull them down the road vs a smooth fiberglass trailer. A no slide front bedroom 5W will pull easier than a FB slide setup, which pulls easier believe it or not vs a TT.

What you can pull, safe or sanely for that matter, does not always fall upon a Weight rating. There is more than one way to figure out what a rig is rated to or should be, based on the end user.

I've also had no issues pulling over gvwr or max trailer rating. I might be a bit slower than if under.....but not always.

marty