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Re: microair easy start results
pianotuna wrote: If I add power factor correction to the air conditioner will it "play well" with the EasyStart? As you mentioned in your exchange with road-runner, power factor correction is merely a capacitor added to compensate for the inductance of motors or an autoformer in your case. This won't affect the EasyStart's operation since it is completely outside of its circuit and that of the air conditioner itself. time2roll wrote: Does Easy Start continue to learn each time or is it just fixed once the initial starts are complete? Can the learning take place with normal cycling or is it better to manually cycle the equipment? If my thermostat is set to "fan on" and just the compressor cycles how will that affect the learning and operation of the Easy Start? Hello time2roll. To add to what jharrell and pianotuna contributed for you, the EasyStart does not continue to learn after the first 5 starts are completed. This is one of its big advantages. Next, you can allow the EasyStart to conducts its learning with normal cycling, providing you know you completed all 5 starts before you start moving back and forth between generator and utility. The only reason we recommend manually cycling and waiting around for the 5 minutes for each trial is to make sure they all get completed. Depending on the weather, your A/C could run all night in one, very long, single cycle. Lastly, you can set the A/C's thermostat to "Fan On" instead of "Fan Auto", and that will not affect the learning of the EasyStart. Typically, depending on the manufacturer and the model of the A/C's control, the fan is already running first before the compressor starts anyway. When powered from an adequate utility source, the EasyStart and its learning is not affected by any of the current going to the fan. However, when powered from a generator, the fan will obviously consume some of the generator's capacity (typically 3A for 1 fan motor with Dometic models, or for 2 fan motors with Coleman models) before the compressor is started. Thus this is one of the reasons for doing the learning on utility so that each starting trial can be better compared to each other without any variability introduced by the fan's affect on the the power source.589Views0likes0CommentsRe: microair easy start results
pianotuna wrote: When training the Micro-Air, would it be wise to use an autoformer to support the voltage? Or does the unit want to see voltage sag? Is there an "ideal" voltage to train at? Does the new 5 minute delay mean that I can "train" by switching off the air conditioner and then turning it back on in 30 seconds? Do you have any information on using the Micro-Air with hybrid inverter/chargers such as the Magnum 3012 which are equipped with a "load support" (not voltage support) feature? I.E. do they "play well together"? pianotuna wrote: Any idea of the wattage draw on your 15k btu unit? pianotuna wrote: Does the Micro Air do power factor correction? 1)The reason we recommend that the 5-start learning process be done on utility power is because it is preferred that the voltage not sag during the learning starts. In this way the critical measurements that the EasyStart is doing (and remembering) during each start are consistent, repeatable, and valid when compared. 2) During learning, the voltage should be at least 110V, but more importantly as stated above, it should be a reasonably consistent voltage that stays within +/-5V,if possible. Once learning is complete, EasyStart will tolerate voltage variation that is extreme, even down past the point where any compressor would be stalled out. 3) The built-in short-cycle prevention timer does allow you to let the EasyStart control the delay and set the pace during back-to-back restarts. 4) We have dozens of customers who have used the EasyStart on many models of Magnum inverter. We own a Magnum 2812 at Micro-Air (which is less wattage than the MSH3012, and is not a hybrid type), and have done extensive testing with even 18k marine units starting and running with success using the EasyStart. Solar/inverter RV refit companies use our EasyStart all the time so they can start and run A/C units even on 2000W inverters, both standard and hybrids (with load support). 5) The wattage of a 15kBTU rooftop varies between manufacturers. We own a 15k Dometic Penguin II and it has an RLA of 15.5A (fan + compressor), but we typically measure it as drawing in the 14.5-15.0A range. 6) The EasyStart does not do any power factor correction for the compressor. Once the start-up is over with, the EasyStart switches out its solid-state electronics with an internal power relay, and restores the compressor configuration to normal. The EasyStart of course continues monitoring the compressor during steady-state running for the various fault conditions it detects.455Views0likes0CommentsRe: microair easy start results
ktmrfs wrote: Well, here is a summary of the microair easy start on my coleman MachIII 13.5KBTU AC... ...So, IMHO success. We shall see when it hits 90F and 4,000 Ft to see if it will still start in eco mode, but I suspect it definitely will start fine with eco mode off. Now, all that said, if you want to run the AC and much else you still will be out of luck. the easy start doesn't defy the laws of physics, so running current is still the same, so not much headroom left. But if you run honda's in parallel, running them in eco mode should work just fine. Outstanding report, ktmrfs! Thank you very much for documenting your success story. You obviously used a current ammeter that did a descent job of capturing the start-up surge. If you subtract out the fan amps for your Coleman (~3A), the compressor went from 57A (=60-3) to 19A (22-3), which is actually better than what I measured on that old Coleman in the YouTube video. You got 66% reduction then, which is great. BTW, with some recent Dometic models, we're seeing starting surge reduction percentages into the 70s, which is quite impressive even to us. Regarding altitude and the Honda EU2000i, we recently worked with 2 different customers who did run into some trouble. Turns out, up to about 3000, all seems okay with the Honda EU2000i. However, we had one customer at 4600' and another at 5300', and they both needed to install the high-altitude carburetor jet kit to get the Honda to keep running after the startup was over with. This was because the running amps were in between Honda's '1600W rated amp spec and their 2000W maximum amp spec. We all know that that the Honda will maintain 2000W just fine without declaring overloads up to 16.7A (2000W). However, the customer at 5300' only had 15A of steady-state draw after the compressor start-up was long over with, and the Honda's output voltage rapidly collapsed after it went just a little over 15A as the compressor warmed up (in 3 to 5 minutes). When this voltage collapse happened, the compressor stalled, and the EasyStart detected this and shut it down immediately. Note that since the output current of the Honda was less than its overload limit (167A), the Honda did not indicate any sort of "problem" per se, during this voltage collapse. This is just how these inverter generators work. If the engine and alternator cannot keep the internal DC Bus (capacitor bank) charged adequate as the inverter section is taking energy away (to drive the output AC waveform), then the DC bus voltage gets drained and the inverter has less voltage to work with. The good news is after this customer at 5300' installed the high-altitude kit, all worked well. pianotuna wrote: I believe the Micro Air does a time delay already? Bobbo wrote: BTW, the EastStart video says it has a 5 second delay. When the fan starts, the EasyStart delays 5 seconds before letting the compressor begin to start. time2roll wrote: Bobbo wrote: BTW, the EastStart video says it has a 5 second delay. When the fan starts, the EasyStart delays 5 seconds before letting the compressor begin to start. I have never understood why the fan should start before the compressor. At home the compressor starts first. Maybe the fan will get the generator off idle and ready to ramp up the throttle. All great questions, gentlemen, and you're all correct, but I have more to add. Back last June when I made the YouTube video, we only had that black-enclosure EasyStart 364 which provided only a 5-second delay. Now, our newest beige, IP65 (fully weatherproof) enclosure model has a new circuit board inside that provides one extra feature. It has an "intelligent" short cycle prevention timer that keeps track of how much time has elapsed since the last time the compressor was running. It will prevent a restart from occurring for a minimum of 5 minutes, and it will keep track of the elapsed time even when power is completely removed (that's the intelligent part). For example, if your A/C's thermostat turns off, and then turns back on again in 3 minutes, the EasyStart will only wait an additional 2 minutes before restarting the compressor. The same is true if AC power was completely removed from your trailer, and then comes back again in less than 5 minutes. Of course, if the elapsed time is greater than 5 minutes, the EasyStart will only wait its usual 5 seconds before smoothly and quietly ramping up the compressor. During the time that the compressor is off, your system's fan will be running, but you won't be getting any cold air. This is normal and often even happens even with some digital thermostats that show an hour glass icon indicating it is waiting too start the cooling cycle. Speaking of the fan starting first, we do know that this helps the Honda respond in ECO mode and be at a higher output level by the time the compressor was started (5 seconds later). It does certainly help, but the Honda is actually smarter than that. We later found that the Honda will control its engine throttle dynamically and it does set it to several "in between" points for various output current levels. So, with the fan on by itself, that's only ~3A. The Honda does increase the engine throttle, but only to a point. The key to the success with EasyStart is that the compressor starting ramp is obviously extended to about 1 second, and the Honda's response time in ECO mode can closely track it and its reserve capacity in its DC bus capacitor bank can source the required surge current as well. The Honda is quite the exceptional machine, and all of the other manufacturers had to play catch-up, or are still in the process of doing so. ------ Thank you again for everyone's support! I'm here to help et me know if you have any further questions. I am attending the Oliver Travel Trailer factory rally in Hohenwald, Tennessee over the next 2 days, so I may be a bit slow in responding.505Views0likes0CommentsRe: Running two 2000 watt generators in eco mode with AC on
DieselBurps wrote: With my A/C turned on and when the compressor cycles or kicks off, the fan continues to run, so the fan timed delay seems like it would only matter on initial start up? Maybe the easy start compressor start sequence is enough to enable my A/C to cycle back on with the Honda generator in ECO mode? Glad to be here to help! If your particular A/C keeps the evaporator fan on after the compressor cycles off, and yours is a Coleman low-profile, then yours likely has two separate fan motors. All the Polar Cubs and Mach 8s do in fact have 2 separate motors. So, although the evaporator fan may keep on running, I believe the condenser fan motor will start up coincident with the compressor (normally). Then, since the EasyStart will only delay the compressor startup, the effect on the Honda's ECO mode behavior should be the same. That is, the condenser fan starting up should be enough extra load to kick the Honda up to high RPM before the compressor starting sequence orchestrated by the EasyStart begins 5 seconds later.766Views0likes0CommentsRe: Running two 2000 watt generators in eco mode with AC on
Hi everyone. I've been monitoring this thread and didn't want to interfere since I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression about our involvement on this forum. We're here to help, not give the hard sell. Many thanks to otrfun and Soundguy for their support and mention of our EasyStart product. I decided to join in now to try and answer the questions that just came up: RSD559 wrote: Item #2, how can it reduce start-up amps so drastically? It would be interesting to see if anyone has actually checked that claim out. RSD599 - The reason the EasyStart can reduce the amps so dramatically is because it is truly a sophisticated, microprocessor-controlled device, that uses advanced power electronics to carefully orchestrate the compressor startup using a gentle voltage ramp, with realtime closed-loop rotational and current feedback. Both the hardware and the firmware are quite advanced, and it's taken us over 4 years to perfect it. EasyStart has and continues to be built-in by many OEMs into various types of A/C products, mostly marine and trucking applications. Our deeper involvement with RV rooftop applications started last summer, pretty much by accident, since we had no idea the market was such a good fit. THe need for EasyStart is driven by the need to start and run a typical RV rooftop A/C on the gold standard, 2000W generators. More on that below. You can read all about EasyStart more at this link. Check out the YouTube video as well for some side-by-side comparison to a hard start. For testimonials, since I don't want to disrespect this forum by providing links to other forums, I would do some Google searches as Soundguy suggested. You'll find plenty of success stories from various owners forums like Lance, Casita, Airstream, and many more unbranded forums beyond that. Also, the famous "Gone with the Wynns" YouTube channel featured EasyStart in one of their RV videos and write-up in February 2016, and they're about to feature us again since I installed EasyStarts into their new boat last June. We're presently revamping our website and webstore now with the help of a marketing company, and they're collecting real testimonials from customers that we can publish with their permission. In the meantime though, there are plenty out there in the public domain. DieselBurps wrote: Thanks for breaking it all down for me. I should provide an update. Well, I still have the yamaha 2000IS watt inverter generator but I picked up a brand new HONDA EU2000 for $750. I plan to sell the Yamaha. Here is the test I conducted today, approximate stats, new generator, near sea level, not that hot out. The Honda starts my truck campers AC unit with ECO mode OFF, no problem, no overload lights. It will also keep the AC running with ECO mode ON, it dials down the RPM's a bit, it is quite, at least enough for me. I am happy. Challenges will be different environmental conditions, and the AC cycling on and off. I think this is where option #2 with a micro air or similar hard start kit comes in. I need to research that now, and figure out how it works with an AC cycling on and off. Dieselburps - Your situation is a bit atypical since most of the time, a 2000W generator will not start a rooftop A/C of 13.5kBTUs or larger without an EasyStart. What BTU size does your truck camper have? I know of one brand of truck camper that uses the 9.2kBTU Coleman rooftops, and those do typically start on 2000W generators with the factory-installed hardstart kits. But besides the obvious benefit of allowing your (13.5 or 15k) A/C to reliably start and run on a 2000W generator, EasyStart also allows you to run the generator with ECO mode turned on, so you can maximize fuel economy. I know you are most interested in this, so here's how it accomplishes that. During the night when the A/C might cycle off, with ECO mode turned on and as you are already aware, the generator will drop to its low RPM. Then, when the A/C's thermostat calls for cooling again, the fan will start up first, but the EasyStart then intentionally delays the compressor startup for a minimum of 5 seconds. The fan's current load is enough to cause the generator to exit ECO mode and jump to high-RPM (full power), so by the time the EasyStart begins its compressor startup sequence, the generator has attained full RPM and full power. Beyond this, the reduction in the startup amps is quite amazing. 65-75% as otrfun cited. Recently, I did 2 installations into some Dometic Penguin II rooftops. Their 15kBTU unit has and LRA ratings of 52A. After EasyStart was done with its 5-start optimization "learning" process, the startup amps had dropped to about 15A. Given the running amps were in the neighborhood of 13A, that was even amazing to me! EasyStart really does work. Beyond this, as a test we loaded up the Honda EU2000i with about 3.5A of auxiliary load so that the total load would be just below its overload threshold after the A/C started (16.7A is the max for a Honda EU2000i). Even with 3.5A of load, the A/C started up with EasyStart installed and there was no overload fault. And better than this, the owner of this trailer was also happy that he could start and run 2 A/C units on a single 30A power cord, both with EasyStarts. Normally, a 50A hookup would be required for that, and those are much harder to find at many campsites. ------------------- Hopefully the above helps clarify a few things. I'm here to answer questions, so please don't hesitate to ask away. Thank you again for everyone's interest in our EasyStart product.765Views0likes0CommentsRe: Hyrbrid Inverter and generator to run AC?
westend wrote: Matteo, Thanks for posting about your product and the offer of information about it. Can you offer a link to the schematic and the information about expected amperage draw of the different AC units? (Note - I had trouble embedding links and the post kept being shown with all of the links "removed". Not sure why.) Hi westend. Thanks for your interest. You can learn all about the EasyStart model 364 by examining this web link: http://www.microair.net/main/products/product.php?id=20, the associated document links, and the YouTube Video. EasyStart 364 is now available in an IP65 (weatherproof) enclosure, which helps when installing it into a rooftop that doesn't have a large enough electric box to fully enclose it. And for the more advanced DIY customers who want to save themselves some money, there is also the EasyStart model 366. The model 366 costs about half of what the model 364 does, but it requires much more installation labor and know-how since you must handle a raw circuit board and provide your own installation components including a suitable enclosure, start cap, and wiring harness. In the video, I also cover and present empirical data about the common debate over whether "hard start" devices provide any benefit and how they compare to EasyStart. There is a lot of information listed in the above, so please take your time reviewing it all. After which, if you still have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.373Views0likes0CommentsRe: Hyrbrid Inverter and generator to run AC?
Searching_Ut wrote: The more I think about it, the more the simple answer seems to be use a bigger generator. Searching_Ut wrote: I looked at that soft start kit, and it looks promising, but probably wouldn't work with my Champion generator. Hello Searching_Ut. My name is Matteo and I work for Micro-Air, the manufacturer of the EasyStart soft starter that was mentioned by jharrell in this thread. We've been watching this thread quietly since the links originally posted by jharrell produced several visits to our website that led me back to this forum. I decided to register in order to subscribe to it. We most certainly want to stay within the rules of the forum, and I wasn't going to participate unless I saw anything being discussed where I could chime in and perhaps help clarify something. In your particular case, you should not need a bigger generator since the EasyStart should work fine with your 2000W inverter-type Champion generator. In fact, as you mentioned in your very first post that started this thread, if you install EasyStart into your 15k A/C unit, you will only need one of your generators operating to start and run it, not two in parallel. I am presently contributing to multiple RV forums where there is literally a mountain of information and countless success stories of people like you who have successfully installed EasyStart into their RV rooftops and successfully operated them off a single 2000W generator or inverter. Both Dometic and Coleman types of A/Cs. I cannot possibly convey what has gone on in these other forums because it is far too extensive and I also don't want to dishonor this forum in any way. Other rv.net members here may have seen some of it in their blogging travels, so they may be able to vouch for what I am claiming. To specifically help you out, let me know what the manufacturer and the model is for your 15k A/C system. I likely already have a wiring diagram in the library I have been building, and I can also share what the expected startup current surge you should expect with EasyStart. I will also be happy to answer any other questions that you may have. So before you invest in a larger generator, please allow me to help you understand and consider the benefits of EasyStart. In the end, the decision is solely and absolutely yours on what you choose to do. I only want to help by providing you and anyone else interested with the hard facts and benefits about EasyStart that many other DIY RV customers are now already enjoying. Thank you again for your consideration.301Views0likes0Comments
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