DW heard from a co-worker yesterday that you will be able to visit the US for up to 8 months now. Google turned up this CBC article from yesterday. Seems like the max. allowable stay is more complicated than I would have thought.The IRS uses the length of stay in the 2 prior years in determining whether or not you owe US income tax. This one would reduce the allowable days in the 3rd year to just 92 days.Someone on this forum mentioned recently that you can only stay a max. of 120 days in the US. This would appear to be due to the IRS rules. If you use their 3-year formula, you would only be able to stay a max. on 120 days per year in a 3 year period.The 8 month allowance is a proposal that is caught up in debate in Congress. Even if that does happen, would it change the IRS current rules? I'm not sure if 8 months away would work with our gov't pension and health care coverage?I always thought when we were both eventually retired, we would hook up our TT and travel around the US each year for 6 months at a time until we got too old to do it anymore. So unless something changes, we will be limited to 4 months a year on an on-going basis. With the new Entry Exit Initiative, it will be important to carefully document your days in the US.

Here's the latest from the Canadian Snowbird Assoc., which is a lobby group for Canadian travellers: good luck, Brian CSA Clarifies U.S. Travel Rules Release date : Jan 21, 2015 In a recent article which appeared on CBC News’ British Columbia website, it was suggested that Canadian citizens are only allowed to spend 120 days in the United States each year. For clarification purposes, the Canadian Snowbird Association would like to remind travellers to the U.S. that this information is incorrect. Under current policy, eligible Canadian citizens may spend up to six months less a day, in the United States, in any 12 month period. From a tax perspective, long-term visitors who typically spend four or more months in the U.S. each calendar year may be deemed resident aliens for tax purposes. In order to be treated as a non-resident alien, these individuals need to claim a “closer connection” to Canada by filing IRS Form 8840 annually. Further, the CBC News article also discussed the Entry/Exit Initiative, a bi-national border program in which entry and exit data will be shared on individuals travelling between Canada and the United States. While this initiative was scheduled to be expanded on June 30, 2014, to include Canadian and American citizens, the necessary legislative and regulatory changes have not been implemented. At present, the Entry/Exit Initiative is not fully operational. If you have any questions related to this matter, please do not hesitate to contact the CSA office toll-free at 1-800-265-3200 or by email at csastaff@snowbirds.org.

See this website for a lot of Q & A from a Canadian accountant about this:http://www.mnp.ca/en/media-centre/blog/2011/2/1/canadians-wintering-in-the-usThe first section of this website explains it quite well. I think this is where people are getting the "you are only 'allowed' 120 days per calendar year in the U.S.". If you don't want to fill out the form 8840 as described in the above website, then keeping your days in the U.S. to 120 per year will ensure that you don't have to fill out that form. I personally know Canadians who stay in the U.S. for as long as U.S. immigration rules allow (180 days) every year and they file their 8840's and have no issues. We are watching where this goes, with allowances being changed to 8 months. The immigration department may allow this, but the tax consequences need to be closely watched. Will the IRS change their rules to align with this as well?There is also provincial health coverage to consider. Some provinces in Canada are allowing residents 7 months out of province. I don't know if any allow 8 months yet. Our province currently allows 6 months.

Re the link I provided, in case you think the information is not current: the discussion in the comments section actually is current and ongoing. Kathy is continuing to regularly monitor this website and she answers questions posted in the comments section.

myredracer wrote:Someone on this forum mentioned recently that you can only stay a max. of 120 days in the US. This would appear to be due to the IRS rules.That is incorrect. If you're over '120 days' you must fill out form 8840 to prove a closer connection to another country otherwise you'll be liable for USA taxes.

On average we stay 160-170 days south inside the US and have done so for many years. I just filled out my 2014 W8840 form this morning, one for me and one for the DW. It takes about 5 minutes each and I make a copy for myself and keep it with the passports. I was asked once if I was aware I had to file it and told the US customs man I had my latest copy. In all the years I've filed them I have never received a reply from IRS or even an acknowledgement they received it.With the new cross checking coming into effect you had better file one as they will know exactly how many days each year you spent south. You also have to include any mid season days or cross border visits.As for the changes it may or may not include the IRS changing but for them it is 182 days max or if over you will become taxable.

Length of stay for Canadians in US - 240 days? | Good Sam Community

oh_boy
Explorer
Feb 21, 2015
We have spent winters south since 2004. On average we spend 165 to 175 days in the US. After our 3rd year we have filed the 8840 form every year. Have never heard boo from the IRS as to even if they received it. You also have to include every day even if you drive over to pick up a package and spend 20 mins.
Starting in July Canada/US will share info on your movements. The US will know exactly when you crossed back into Canada. Be a real bummer to be going to Fla for the winter and they decide you can't come in this year.
In all the years I have been asked once if I knew about the 8840 tax form and I said I have my most recent copy.
All the form does is tell the IRS you have a closer connection to Canada ie banks,licenses, voting etc.
It remains to be seen if the IRS will also allow an extension if the bill passes. If not your still under 181 days
bjbear
Explorer
Feb 12, 2015
labren wrote:
Mountaineer42 wrote:
PackerBacker wrote:
dieharder wrote:
Brynjolf wrote:

Most importantly, from the instructions attached to the 8840 form itself:

Substantial Presence Test
You are considered a U.S. resident if you meet the substantial presence test for 2014. You meet this test if you were physically present in the United States for at least:
• 31 days during 2014 and
• 183 days during the period 2014, 2013, and 2012, counting all the days of physical presence in 2014 but only 1/3 the number of days of presence in 2013 and only 1/6 the number of days in 2012.

So, yes, 31 days or more in the US and you must file the form.

But what about the "AND" statement in there? It's not just if you spent 31 days in 2014.

Correct, the 31 day statement must be taken in context with the rest of the text.

... Eric

It is mathematically impossible to meet these conditions together (as in 'and') if you only spend 31 days in 2014. You would have had to exceed the limit of 183 days in the previous years 2013 and/or 2012.

So if I have this correct....most agree that if we have 121 days using the formula provided for 2012,2013,2014 then we do not have to file the form. 2014 we were in the USA for 66 days? The form is quite confusing, even though some said it was easy to understand, maybe it is...I just don't get it yet!

I think you are looking at this wrong....

As soon as you enter the US, the clock starts ticking. Once you meet the threshold of 31 days AND 183 days as calculated, then the IRS considers you a resident for tax purposes and technically, you are required to file and pay taxes. That is the law if you choose to enter the US.

However, the IRS recognizes that you may have a closer connection to Canada, and gives you the option of claiming this exeption by filing the 8840 form. It is strictly up to you. either file an 8840 form --OR-- file a 1040NR tax return and pay taxes.

Even if you don't meet the 31/183 threshold, it is a good idea to file the 8840 as it gives you the opportunity to formally register the days you are in the US and prove that you do not meet the criteria to be considered a resident for tax purposes.

The 8840 is very easy to fill out, and only takes a few minutes ... And a stamp.

It is not true as some people think that filling out the form will result in you having to pay taxes. It is the opposite .. If you are required to file and pay taxes according to the law, the 8840 allows you to avoid that.
Community Alumni
Feb 12, 2015
labren wrote:

So if I have this correct....most agree that if we have 121 days using the formula provided for 2012,2013,2014 then we do not have to file the form. 2014 we were in the USA for 66 days? The form is quite confusing, even though some said it was easy to understand, maybe it is...I just don't get it yet!

No you do not need to fill out the form. You only need to fill out the form if you have a total number greater than 182 using the 3-year formula.

... Eric
labren
Explorer
Feb 11, 2015
Mountaineer42 wrote:
PackerBacker wrote:
dieharder wrote:
Brynjolf wrote:

Most importantly, from the instructions attached to the 8840 form itself:

Substantial Presence Test
You are considered a U.S. resident if you meet the substantial presence test for 2014. You meet this test if you were physically present in the United States for at least:
• 31 days during 2014 and
• 183 days during the period 2014, 2013, and 2012, counting all the days of physical presence in 2014 but only 1/3 the number of days of presence in 2013 and only 1/6 the number of days in 2012.

So, yes, 31 days or more in the US and you must file the form.

But what about the "AND" statement in there? It's not just if you spent 31 days in 2014.

Correct, the 31 day statement must be taken in context with the rest of the text.

... Eric

It is mathematically impossible to meet these conditions together (as in 'and') if you only spend 31 days in 2014. You would have had to exceed the limit of 183 days in the previous years 2013 and/or 2012.

So if I have this correct....most agree that if we have 121 days using the formula provided for 2012,2013,2014 then we do not have to file the form. 2014 we were in the USA for 66 days? The form is quite confusing, even though some said it was easy to understand, maybe it is...I just don't get it yet!
Mountaineer42
Explorer
Feb 07, 2015
PackerBacker wrote:
dieharder wrote:
Brynjolf wrote:

Most importantly, from the instructions attached to the 8840 form itself:

Substantial Presence Test
You are considered a U.S. resident if you meet the substantial presence test for 2014. You meet this test if you were physically present in the United States for at least:
• 31 days during 2014 and
• 183 days during the period 2014, 2013, and 2012, counting all the days of physical presence in 2014 but only 1/3 the number of days of presence in 2013 and only 1/6 the number of days in 2012.

So, yes, 31 days or more in the US and you must file the form.

But what about the "AND" statement in there? It's not just if you spent 31 days in 2014.

Correct, the 31 day statement must be taken in context with the rest of the text.

... Eric

It is mathematically impossible to meet these conditions together (as in 'and') if you only spend 31 days in 2014. You would have had to exceed the limit of 183 days in the previous years 2013 and/or 2012.
myredracer
Explorer II
Feb 07, 2015
Here is a good article from The Globe and Mail on the implications of allowing Canadians to stay up to 240 days in the US
joebedford
Nomad II
Feb 03, 2015
Think of it this way:

- You spent no time in USA in 2014 but your computed total from 2013 and 2012 is over 183 days. Do you have to file a form? No.

- You spent 60 days in USA in 2014 but nothing in 2013 and 2012, do you have to file a form? No.

If you change the word "and" to "or", they you would have to file in both those cases.
Community Alumni
Feb 03, 2015
dieharder wrote:
Brynjolf wrote:

Most importantly, from the instructions attached to the 8840 form itself:

Substantial Presence Test
You are considered a U.S. resident if you meet the substantial presence test for 2014. You meet this test if you were physically present in the United States for at least:
• 31 days during 2014 and
• 183 days during the period 2014, 2013, and 2012, counting all the days of physical presence in 2014 but only 1/3 the number of days of presence in 2013 and only 1/6 the number of days in 2012.

So, yes, 31 days or more in the US and you must file the form.

But what about the "AND" statement in there? It's not just if you spent 31 days in 2014.

Correct, the 31 day statement must be taken in context with the rest of the text.

... Eric
dieharder
Explorer
Feb 02, 2015
Brynjolf wrote:

Most importantly, from the instructions attached to the 8840 form itself:

Substantial Presence Test
You are considered a U.S. resident if you meet the substantial presence test for 2014. You meet this test if you were physically present in the United States for at least:
• 31 days during 2014 and
• 183 days during the period 2014, 2013, and 2012, counting all the days of physical presence in 2014 but only 1/3 the number of days of presence in 2013 and only 1/6 the number of days in 2012.

So, yes, 31 days or more in the US and you must file the form.

But what about the "AND" statement in there? It's not just if you spent 31 days in 2014.
Brynjolf
Explorer
Feb 02, 2015
pianotuna wrote:
I am concerned about the 31 day provision.

Here's the article in question.

From the article:
The substantial presence test only applies to those present in the U.S. for more than 31 days in the current year.

If they have not been filing form 8440, to establish their closer connection and their legal residence as Canada, they can be detained, penalized or prevented from re-entering the U.S. So there are some pretty heavy penalties associated with this.

Hunnisett said it's important to understand that it's just like a tax form and you file it subsequent to the year. Forms are filed on June 15. If for 2014 you exceed 31 days, by June 2015 you have to file this form.

Most importantly, from the instructions attached to the 8840 form itself:

Substantial Presence Test
You are considered a U.S. resident if you meet the substantial presence test for 2014. You meet this test if you were physically present in the United States for at least:
• 31 days during 2014 and
• 183 days during the period 2014, 2013, and 2012, counting all the days of physical presence in 2014 but only 1/3 the number of days of presence in 2013 and only 1/6 the number of days in 2012.

So, yes, 31 days or more in the US and you must file the form.

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