Utah's National Park Electric Corridor.

Matt_Colie wrote:

Well Len,

You are a bit out of time here.

But, of the lead that gets recycled from batteries, almost all goes back into batteries. Refining of raw lead is now forbidden in the US.

Matt

The hunting restriction is state by state but I'm still buying lead bullets. I have friends that even mold their own for muzzle loaders:

https://www.midwayusa.com/lead-alloy/br?cid=8662

Plus: the EPA can always change it's standards . . . or go away. ;)

LS

Johno02 wrote:
Just to start, I am fully in favor of both wind and solar power. However, it would be interesting to see some figures considering how much petroleum based, pollution-causing fuels are used to generate the clean electricity to run pollution-free electric vehicles.

Good morning. From what I can see or read on readily available numbers is that in most but not all the world more and more energy is coming from renewables or cleaner sources of power. I see you are from the US so I took a quick look at a table I found and it seems that coal use seems to drop just a little over 1 percent per year there. I thin it is around 33 percent there. Not too many years back it was north of 50 percent. I don't know much about CO2 levels but I know when I am standing on a sidewalk at a stop light and the stench of diesel and gas fumes is prominent. That can't be good for the health. EV's don't emit those fumes. If the power still comes from a fossil fuel source it is probably better controlled and regulated than a 1996 Volkswagen Jettas tail pipe. Many countries produce very little power through fossil fuel sources and most countries that do are reducing the amount of air pollution that they produce. Those that don't, well, can't do much about them. We need to work on our problems at home first. No easy answers, one step at a time.

Cheers

Johno02 wrote:
Just to start, I am fully in favor of both wind and solar power. However, it would be interesting to see some figures considering how much petroleum based, pollution-causing fuels are used to generate the clean electricity to run pollution-free electric vehicles.

And just looking at a bit more reality, in much of our country, the population density per acre is very small. Then look at just about any big city, that uses more electricity per square foot than acres of open land oes. How many square miles of open land for solar and wind power does it take to provide power for places like LA and southern Ca, or New York and the NE part of the country. A complete solar umbrella covering any of the big cities would not even start to provide the power used by that city. And out in the open Midwest, at lots of the west coast that are open and can be used are currently using that solar power to grow crops that will not grow in shade, and are much of our food needs. Would you be be willing to never have a salad again to be able to drive electric?? Ok untill you start getting hungry.

Noel .... outstanding observations and comments. Way to go!!

Just to start, I am fully in favor of both wind and solar power. However, it would be interesting to see some figures considering how much petroleum based, pollution-causing fuels are used to generate the clean electricity to run pollution-free electric vehicles.

And just looking at a bit more reality, in much of our country, the population density per acre is very small. Then look at just about any big city, that uses more electricity per square foot than acres of open land oes. How many square miles of open land for solar and wind power does it take to provide power for places like LA and southern Ca, or New York and the NE part of the country. A complete solar umbrella covering any of the big cities would not even start to provide the power used by that city. And out in the open Midwest, at lots of the west coast that are open and can be used are currently using that solar power to grow crops that will not grow in shade, and are much of our food needs. Would you be be willing to never have a salad again to be able to drive electric?? Ok untill you start getting hungry.

As far as the road tax is concerned, Tennessee charges $100 per year more to license an electric car or hybrid.

As to why lead based batteries are still in such heavy use, it's because they are very economical, and they just plain work well in a wide range of conditions. Remember, in the early days of the automobile, electric ruled. It was the shortcomings of batteries that resulted in the gas engine becoming the norm, and unfortunately, it's still the shortcomings of batteries that are keeping electric vehicles, self sufficient homes etc. from being a good choice for most.

A lot of my neighbors have had solar installed on their roofs due to the large subsidy available right now. In fact, Utah has the second highest per capita solar installed in the nation. Unfortunately, virtually all these homes are a grid tie system without the ability to operate independently should the grid go down. Keeping the cost down also requires net metering which is a method of forcing other grid users to subsidize the solar systems operating costs. Currently the cost of building the generation and distribution of the grid is built into the cost of the power. As more and more solar comes on line, the methodology of billing will have to change so that the folks running solar actually pay the actual costs of the services they are provided from the grid.

Ozlander wrote:
How does the road tax get paid?????

Depends on the country, province, state. Some have a flat fee collected at registration. Some calculate it on weight and mileage. It seems to me one country is collecting a per kilowatt fee on level three charging only. I disagree with that as most of my charging is done at home. Most EV owners I know prefer the registration fee. Some places are not collecting anything yet but I would imagine that won't last long.

How does the road tax get paid?????

LenSatic wrote:
That's what they do now, not 50 years from now. They want people to buy. Plus, they are being subsidized. That won't last.

As for lead-acid, the greenies don't know it but the lead is recycled into bullets. ;)

One has to wonder why 19th century lead-acid batteries and internal combustion engines are still in use. It's a head scratcher! ;)

LS

Well Len,

You are a bit out of time here.

I agree that the subsidy for electric cars won't(can't) last. It makes no economic sense at all.

But, of the lead that gets recycled from batteries, almost all goes back into batteries. Refining of raw lead is now forbidden in the US. Most bullets are not even lead anymore. Lead is forbidden in most all hunting ammunition and even many target shooters on closed ranges are enjoined from using cast lead bullets.

As to why what appear to be 19th century technology is still in use, that means you haven't really looked. The lead/acid batteries in use today only share the basic theoretical chemistry with those of the 19th century. And, internal combustion engines are so far advanced as to make them almost unrecognizable to a 19th or even early 20th century mechanic. And that is just the open-loop stuff.....

Matt

pnichols wrote:

John & Angela wrote:
Right now it wouldn't be worth it for us to install roof solar as grid power is cheap.

:h I'm curious ... where is both grid power cheap and the air clean if there isn't a bunch of falling water or nuclear fission around?

For example, here in CA grid power is not cheap and the air is getting clean, but without much help from nuclear fission or falling water. I expect that solar and wind has something to do with our clean air. However, so far solar and wind ARE NOT bringing down the cost of grid power.

Right here in the Southwest - in probably the largest solar and wind farm area of the U.S. - the cost to charge EVs has nowhere to go but up unless EV owners throw up enough solar real estate on their roofs. What are the financing costs for decent sized roof solar panel systems, anyway? Are payback break-even points still several years out?

I'm not a fan of individual solar setups at personal residences. I'd rather see the grid still supplying the bulk of personal residence power - including EV charging - but with grid power becoming cheaper and cheaper as large solar and wind farms feeding the grid come on line more and more across the U.S.. IMHO, that's the most efficient way for non-fossil power to benefit the masses and Planet Earth -> use the huge grid system that is already in place but feed it with solar and wind generated energy. (My thouughts on solar and wind sourcing of power are assuming that nuclear fusion power is still a long way off, or impossible.)

Where? I don't know. I am far from being any kind of grid expert. We are in a province that gets all its power from hydro. I get your drift though. I guess in my mind if I was in a place where rates are high and I knew I was going to be there for a while I would just spend the bucks and go off grid. But here power is 11 cents per kWh canadian currency. Not worth the investment although our Town House has a 320 watt solar system coupled to a 2 KW battery reserve with 2.5 kw sine wave inverter for emergency backup etc. Fridge, some lights, a couple fans etc. Good for a few days without sun, indefinite with.

Appreciate your comments. Always pertinent and interesting. Thank you.