story found here: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/05/10/utah-residents-become-next-to-confront-bureau-land-management-in-growing-debate/#Perhaps this will trigger more BLM land opening up to ATVs. I never understood why hikers and horses are permitted, but not ATVs.

It won't trigger them opening anything, I am afraid.However, it is clear that a growing number of citizens are reaching the point where they believe the BLM needs to be refocused, and their mission re-evaluated, in a very big way.This growing number of citizens, if they unite and get their act together, can trigger a revolution at the ballot box, which can change things...if it goes far enough, and they stay the course, pressuring their representatives at every level to get this bureaucracy under control.I understand their frustration. I spent several years involved in the "working with BLM" game, trying to deal with the absurdities of recreation area management plans, etc. In the end the people lost. The truth, as I experienced it, is that (with few exceptions, the recent victory in Glamis being the biggest of those) there is a culture in the BLM that transcends administrations, and that culture is not one that supports mechanized recreation. In fact, it doesn't support recreation at all. I once heard a highly placed BLM official tell me to my face that, "closing and gating land is much easier than managing it for public access". In general that culture supports gaining control of and then closing as much land as possible. The culture is aligned with the anti-access crowd, and they really don't try to hide it.It is the culture that needs to be changed. Land grabs continue. Look at what is afoot at Veil Lake in Southern California.Anyway, it is nice to see the people starting to get involved in the process.We have a long road ahead of us, but getting involved and getting organized is a great start.

I would say because hikers and horses dont go out with intent to cause destruction. They go out to enjoy the area and its scenic, quiet beauty.We are by no means liberal save the planet activists, but all it takes is a few to ruin it for the rest. Utah and the 4 corners area is beautiful, sacred land, and if it means no atv's to save the areas integrity for generations to enjoy, we are all for it, No, I am not saying atv'rs are trouble makers, we had quads for many years, but there will always be the few who want to vandalize and cause trouble, and they are much more likely to be on a motorized vehicle than foot or horseback.

Nutinelse2do wrote:I would say because hikers and horses dont go out with intent to cause destruction. They go out to enjoy the area and its scenic, quiet beauty.We are by no means liberal save the planet activists, but all it takes is a few to ruin it for the rest. Utah and the 4 corners area is beautiful, sacred land, and if it means no atv's to save the areas integrity for generations to enjoy, we are all for it, No, I am not saying atv'rs are trouble makers, we had quads for many years, but there will always be the few who want to vandalize and cause trouble, and they are much more likely to be on a motorized vehicle than foot or horseback.Just like all those rvers that waste fuel driving from place to place. They are all just a bunch of polluters... gotta love those generalizations. As an avid mountain biker who grew up riding in So California I have heard your same argument only with "motorized" being switched with "bikes". So one weekend we went up and sat on a popular trail and videotaped the entire day. Guess how many bikers cut the trail, discarded trash, or in some other way altered the landscape? 0 Guess how many hikers did the same? 15 Obviously this is not a valid sample size but it sure did sway the city when we presented it to them.

Pedal a off road bike, it's fun, healthy and quite!

My first degree is anthropology and I am aware of the huge amount of damage done to First Nations sites by those in ATV's. Think of it as, how would you like it if some one was driving around the grave yard your grand parents were buried in and whooping it up. This is an area that is culturally sensitive and I don't know that there are grave sites but none the less why can't there be areas preserved from the noise and stink and all too often just plain lack of respect for those that were here first.

ATV riders stand up BLM in Utah | Good Sam Community

BoonHauler
Explorer
May 14, 2014
Bakersfield wrote:
"Access for each individual group with designated trails, equally distributed, is a fair, unselfish, solution."

That is the quote of the day. All groups need to come together with one voice and pressure the politicians to keep public lands open and accessible.

Bakersfield, best post in the entire thread.

The only way we the people are going to stop this unprecedented land grab by the Feds is for us to unite under one banner!

Goggle "Wildlands Project".....it's being done by radical environmentists....:M

garry owen wrote:

i can remember as young lad going to the forest and seeing signs saying;" national forest, land of many uses". i can't remember when i last saw one.

Garry, I too remember seeing the signs you're referencing, Havn't seen any them lately. I don't think that's in their 'Mission Statement' anymore.

The only signs I see now are 'Public Lands, Keep Out'
Bakersfield
Explorer
May 14, 2014
"Access for each individual group with designated trails, equally distributed, is a fair, unselfish, solution."

That is the quote of the day. All groups need to come together with one voice and pressure the politicians to keep public lands open and accessible.
coolbreeze01
Explorer
May 14, 2014
Sierra Clubbers on horseback with their paid packers, have done way more damage to wilderness areas than hikers, or people riding quads or side x sides would. The laws and management are ridiculous.
The_Texan
Explorer
May 13, 2014
nayther wrote:

BRAVO TO YOU BOTH! I keep harping on education but can only reach those that are organized or follow boards such as this, many do not. I'm not picking on ATV's or UTV's but unfortunately they are, by percentage, the less "educated" in land use issues. Anyone can jump on an ATV or drive a UTV but it takes some skill to ride a motorcycle and we see a greater percentage of motorcyclists are educated than the others. We really need to educate everyone on the damage they are doing to our sport by illegal access.

And please don't flame me, I like ATVs and UTVs just my personal preference is two wheels. I know most on this board that have more than two wheels in the dirt are responsible users.
Please come out to our area and "educate" the motorcyclist on trail etiquette and responsible riding. They are by far the worst offenders in this neck of the woods and anyone here will vouch for that. Anytime the county takes USFS or BLM to court over illegal closures, the prime example used in all court cases by BOTH federal agencies are the motorcyclist. Yes, every group needs to be "properly" educated, but please don't set there and point fingers, paint everyone else as the bad guy and then pat your group on the back as the good guy that does NO damage.
nayther
Explorer
May 13, 2014
Another item regarding wilderness that needs to be stated and that the land is basically "untouched by humans". This seems to be repeatedly ignored by our legislators and land that is totally unfit as wilderness is made so or annexed into surrounding wilderness. I've seen some "cherry stem" routes closed in Los Padres area that are supposed to be open and the response it "we don't have the resources to police that road so we closed it". Yet that road was specifically shown on the approved NEPA/CEQA maps as remaining open for access THROUGH this area. Without this road being open we were unable to connect trails and complete our legal ride so had to double back. And they wonder why there are violators.
RedRocket204
Explorer
May 13, 2014
bigdogger wrote:
If people want to change policies, they need to present their positions with credible arguments. Saying that horses and hikers do more damage to wilderness areas than ATVs is not a credible claim. Once you make an outlandish claim such as that, every other point you make is going to be received with an equal amount of skepticism. Just like going out and breaking the law by riding in off limit areas is not going to bolster any ATVer's claim that riding in those areas can be managed and administered.

I don't think anyone is asking to take mechanized vehicles into official Wilderness Areas...of course unless we are talking semantics here about what a Wilderness area is.

Wilderness areas:
In the United States, a Wilderness Area is an area of federal land set aside by an act of Congress. Human activities in wilderness areas are restricted to scientific study and non-mechanized recreation; horses are permitted but motorized vehicles and equipment are not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilderness_area

The Wilderness areas I've been to in CO would never fit an ATV/UTV anyway, they also have narrow gate access, so it would be a stretch to assume people with an ATV/UTV are trying that. I also 100% expect for those trails to stay Wilderness areas with the continuation of no access even for MTBing...and I am an avid MTBer. Those Wilderness areas are set aside for a reason and everyone should abide by the rules.

Aside from owning an ATV, I am a much more avid MTBer. Fortunately, ignorance is not the norm here in CO against MTBing so there are plenty of premier, shared usage, MTB trails available...but with the always looming threat of bans or idiotic eco-terrorism taking place by those selfish to believe only they are in the right. There are some examples of eco-terrorism currently happening now but I am not providing examples to not spread these foolish ideas of people intent on causing harm or even death...yes, at times it can be that bad.

Now, to say that horses don't tear up trails in Wilderness areas...well, I suppose if you have never been to areas after horses have gone through then I would not expect you to see the erosion that is started from horse hooves on trails...not to mention the many "gifts" that are left behind. I see this on a single-track trail system I frequently ride which is a 10 minute ride from my home. This trail system allows hiking/Equestrians/MTB but is not a Wilderness area. Yet, I still believe all 3 users should continue to have access. And guess what? When trail maintenance requests go out...guess who is the user group with the majority of volunteers? MTBers.

As for ATV/UTV/Jeep...there are designated trails for those groups to use here. There is also the Stay The Trail Colorado group designated to:
Stay The Trail Colorado wrote:
The mission of Stay The Trail Colorado is to encourage the responsible use of the roads and trails that are open to motorized recreation in Colorado. Stay The Trail Colorado is a program of the Responsible Recreation Foundation.

http://www.staythetrail.org/

Access for each individual group with designated trails, equally distributed, is a fair, unselfish, solution.
thebudman
Explorer
May 13, 2014
OK- here's something to ponder: look at the damage done to the Organ Pipe National Park by the hordes of illegal aliens errrrr... "undocumented wanderers". The place is trashed- The BLM doesn't seem too concerned about this. Selective enforcement meets selective outrage and thus spawns hypocrisy. Now if only we could get a senile U.S. Senator to call these lawbreakers "domestic terrorists".
Bumpyroad
Explorer
May 13, 2014
bigdogger wrote:
If people want to change policies, they need to present their positions with credible arguments. Saying that horses and hikers do more damage to wilderness areas than ATVs is not a credible claim. Once you make an outlandish claim such as that, every other point you make is going to be received with an equal amount of skepticism. Just like going out and breaking the law by riding in off limit areas is not going to bolster any ATVer's claim that riding in those areas can be managed and administered.

well stated.
bumpy
bigdogger
Explorer II
May 13, 2014
If people want to change policies, they need to present their positions with credible arguments. Saying that horses and hikers do more damage to wilderness areas than ATVs is not a credible claim. Once you make an outlandish claim such as that, every other point you make is going to be received with an equal amount of skepticism. Just like going out and breaking the law by riding in off limit areas is not going to bolster any ATVer's claim that riding in those areas can be managed and administered.
Bedlam
Moderator
May 13, 2014
Neither lugged boots, horses or wheeled vehicles are native to North America, so there is nothing natural about any of them. This does not mean we should not use them for recreation or transportation, but all of us need to be aware of our impact on the surrounds regardless of our chosen mode of travel.