story found here: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/05/10/utah-residents-become-next-to-confront-bureau-land-management-in-growing-debate/#Perhaps this will trigger more BLM land opening up to ATVs. I never understood why hikers and horses are permitted, but not ATVs.

It won't trigger them opening anything, I am afraid.However, it is clear that a growing number of citizens are reaching the point where they believe the BLM needs to be refocused, and their mission re-evaluated, in a very big way.This growing number of citizens, if they unite and get their act together, can trigger a revolution at the ballot box, which can change things...if it goes far enough, and they stay the course, pressuring their representatives at every level to get this bureaucracy under control.I understand their frustration. I spent several years involved in the "working with BLM" game, trying to deal with the absurdities of recreation area management plans, etc. In the end the people lost. The truth, as I experienced it, is that (with few exceptions, the recent victory in Glamis being the biggest of those) there is a culture in the BLM that transcends administrations, and that culture is not one that supports mechanized recreation. In fact, it doesn't support recreation at all. I once heard a highly placed BLM official tell me to my face that, "closing and gating land is much easier than managing it for public access". In general that culture supports gaining control of and then closing as much land as possible. The culture is aligned with the anti-access crowd, and they really don't try to hide it.It is the culture that needs to be changed. Land grabs continue. Look at what is afoot at Veil Lake in Southern California.Anyway, it is nice to see the people starting to get involved in the process.We have a long road ahead of us, but getting involved and getting organized is a great start.

I would say because hikers and horses dont go out with intent to cause destruction. They go out to enjoy the area and its scenic, quiet beauty.We are by no means liberal save the planet activists, but all it takes is a few to ruin it for the rest. Utah and the 4 corners area is beautiful, sacred land, and if it means no atv's to save the areas integrity for generations to enjoy, we are all for it, No, I am not saying atv'rs are trouble makers, we had quads for many years, but there will always be the few who want to vandalize and cause trouble, and they are much more likely to be on a motorized vehicle than foot or horseback.

Nutinelse2do wrote:I would say because hikers and horses dont go out with intent to cause destruction. They go out to enjoy the area and its scenic, quiet beauty.We are by no means liberal save the planet activists, but all it takes is a few to ruin it for the rest. Utah and the 4 corners area is beautiful, sacred land, and if it means no atv's to save the areas integrity for generations to enjoy, we are all for it, No, I am not saying atv'rs are trouble makers, we had quads for many years, but there will always be the few who want to vandalize and cause trouble, and they are much more likely to be on a motorized vehicle than foot or horseback.Just like all those rvers that waste fuel driving from place to place. They are all just a bunch of polluters... gotta love those generalizations. As an avid mountain biker who grew up riding in So California I have heard your same argument only with "motorized" being switched with "bikes". So one weekend we went up and sat on a popular trail and videotaped the entire day. Guess how many bikers cut the trail, discarded trash, or in some other way altered the landscape? 0 Guess how many hikers did the same? 15 Obviously this is not a valid sample size but it sure did sway the city when we presented it to them.

Pedal a off road bike, it's fun, healthy and quite!

My first degree is anthropology and I am aware of the huge amount of damage done to First Nations sites by those in ATV's. Think of it as, how would you like it if some one was driving around the grave yard your grand parents were buried in and whooping it up. This is an area that is culturally sensitive and I don't know that there are grave sites but none the less why can't there be areas preserved from the noise and stink and all too often just plain lack of respect for those that were here first.

ATV riders stand up BLM in Utah | Good Sam Community

Bakersfield
Explorer
May 15, 2014
The infighting is killing us. One day you will wake up and everything will be closed. At that point it really does not matter who caused it; the fact is you did not nothing to prevent it. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke). Closing public land is pure evil.

Everyone (hikers, motorcycles, horses, ATV, SXS, 4x4, mountain bikes, etc) have an impact on the land. What we need are ideas and solutions:
Perhaps, we require everyone that use public land to take a "Leave no Trace" class.
Perhaps, we need more Rangers to enforce laws on already on the books.
Perhaps, we need to really increase the fines, penalties, jail time and take rides away.
Perhaps, we increase taxes and increase user fees to pay for enforcement.
Perhaps, we increase the CCC program, build new trails, and repair the old ones.
Perhaps, we get the media involved and invite them on a ride-a-long.
Perhaps, we hit up all the manufactures of motor sports and form a PAC.
Perhaps, .... Insert idea here.
BoonHauler
Explorer
May 15, 2014
nayther wrote:

This thread is degrading into personal attacks so I'm done. I'll just leave it at that.

This will be our biggest hurdle to get over and I hate too say it but I don't think we'll beable too......:(

Our Public Land will continue to be closed at an alarming rate because of it.
nayther
Explorer
May 14, 2014
bobx2,

you have no idea what I've seen or what I do for OHV access, I asked not to be flamed, ie not get personal and you did just that. as I stated this is my experience in the desert, OHV parks and National Forests in and around CA. I won't bother to go into my activeness in this arena beyond that but those that know me know I speak the truth and am constantly working with BLM, NFS, etc. on access issues.

I cannot speak for Colorado either.

This thread is degrading into personal attacks so I'm done. I'll just leave it at that.
bobx2
Explorer
May 14, 2014
Mmaxed wrote:
bobx2 wrote:
nayther wrote:
A prime example of everyone working together is the Sequoia National Forest. Stewards of the Sequoia.

They have an awesome trail system and some wilderness areas too. Trails are multiple use with hikers, equestrian, mountain bikes and motorcycles. Very few ATV trails though as that makes the trails too wide.

Makes the trails too wide for what??? Is a single track less noticeable than a double track?

"nayther wrote:
BRAVO TO YOU BOTH! I keep harping on education but can only reach those that are organized or follow boards such as this, many do not. I'm not picking on ATV's or UTV's but unfortunately they are, by percentage, the less "educated" in land use issues. Anyone can jump on an ATV or drive a UTV but it takes some skill to ride a motorcycle and we see a greater percentage of motorcyclists are educated than the others."

More skill and better educated if you ride a two wheeler?? Hahahahahaha. You are priceless. Make a statement like that, and then beg to not be flamed for it. That is about the most uneducated post in this thread, and the same mentality that makes bikers think that they don't tear up trails. Have you EVER seen a bike that wasn't throwing up a roost behind it? Clueless...

Nayther is right according to what we see here. The single track trails don't get shortcut, trashed and messed up like the ATV trails. Responsible ATVers have tried to get a club going, but the slobs don't join any way. May be true for bikers also but the trail conditions tell otherwise. Rode some ATV trails last year that you couldn't tell where the trail was supposed to be. It would split, then in a few hundred yards split again. Only places there was just one trail was where that was the only passage. Almost never see trash on single track. Sometimes we nearly run out of room to carry back all we see on ATV trails.

Don't know where you guys are, but just the opposite is the case around these parts. The bikes just take off from the trails and ride where ever they want. Easy to see where they went because the rear tire is always spinning and tearing it up. As for trash, there are pigs in all groups. Not a huge issue here, but any at all is too much.
Mmaxed
Explorer II
May 14, 2014
bobx2 wrote:
nayther wrote:
A prime example of everyone working together is the Sequoia National Forest. Stewards of the Sequoia.

They have an awesome trail system and some wilderness areas too. Trails are multiple use with hikers, equestrian, mountain bikes and motorcycles. Very few ATV trails though as that makes the trails too wide.

Makes the trails too wide for what??? Is a single track less noticeable than a double track?

"nayther wrote:
BRAVO TO YOU BOTH! I keep harping on education but can only reach those that are organized or follow boards such as this, many do not. I'm not picking on ATV's or UTV's but unfortunately they are, by percentage, the less "educated" in land use issues. Anyone can jump on an ATV or drive a UTV but it takes some skill to ride a motorcycle and we see a greater percentage of motorcyclists are educated than the others."

More skill and better educated if you ride a two wheeler?? Hahahahahaha. You are priceless. Make a statement like that, and then beg to not be flamed for it. That is about the most uneducated post in this thread, and the same mentality that makes bikers think that they don't tear up trails. Have you EVER seen a bike that wasn't throwing up a roost behind it? Clueless...

Nayther is right according to what we see here. The single track trails don't get shortcut, trashed and messed up like the ATV trails. Responsible ATVers have tried to get a club going, but the slobs don't join any way. May be true for bikers also but the trail conditions tell otherwise. Rode some ATV trails last year that you couldn't tell where the trail was supposed to be. It would split, then in a few hundred yards split again. Only places there was just one trail was where that was the only passage. Almost never see trash on single track. Sometimes we nearly run out of room to carry back all we see on ATV trails.
Bumpyroad
Explorer
May 14, 2014
mustangglp wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqL2qZ3YsMg

Its kind of dumb to blame the tool when it really the people to blame?
Here is a good example of your typical RV er

as old whats his name sez, you can't fix stupid.
bumpy
mustangglp
Explorer
May 14, 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqL2qZ3YsMg

Its kind of dumb to blame the tool when it really the people to blame?
Here is a good example of your typical RV er
bobx2
Explorer
May 14, 2014
nayther wrote:
A prime example of everyone working together is the Sequoia National Forest. Stewards of the Sequoia.

They have an awesome trail system and some wilderness areas too. Trails are multiple use with hikers, equestrian, mountain bikes and motorcycles. Very few ATV trails though as that makes the trails too wide.

Makes the trails too wide for what??? Is a single track less noticeable than a double track?

"nayther wrote:
BRAVO TO YOU BOTH! I keep harping on education but can only reach those that are organized or follow boards such as this, many do not. I'm not picking on ATV's or UTV's but unfortunately they are, by percentage, the less "educated" in land use issues. Anyone can jump on an ATV or drive a UTV but it takes some skill to ride a motorcycle and we see a greater percentage of motorcyclists are educated than the others."

More skill and better educated if you ride a two wheeler?? Hahahahahaha. You are priceless. Make a statement like that, and then beg to not be flamed for it. That is about the most uneducated post in this thread, and the same mentality that makes bikers think that they don't tear up trails. Have you EVER seen a bike that wasn't throwing up a roost behind it? Clueless...
Bedlam
Moderator
May 14, 2014
Maybe the key to what is being posted is that members in organized groups that share information typically have more awareness of land use issues than individuals. Unfortunately, a single individual can cause closure action if they abuse the area which is why reaching out to other riders is so important.
nayther
Explorer
May 14, 2014
The Texan wrote:
nayther wrote:

BRAVO TO YOU BOTH! I keep harping on education but can only reach those that are organized or follow boards such as this, many do not. I'm not picking on ATV's or UTV's but unfortunately they are, by percentage, the less "educated" in land use issues. Anyone can jump on an ATV or drive a UTV but it takes some skill to ride a motorcycle and we see a greater percentage of motorcyclists are educated than the others. We really need to educate everyone on the damage they are doing to our sport by illegal access.

And please don't flame me, I like ATVs and UTVs just my personal preference is two wheels. I know most on this board that have more than two wheels in the dirt are responsible users.
Please come out to our area and "educate" the motorcyclist on trail etiquette and responsible riding. They are by far the worst offenders in this neck of the woods and anyone here will vouch for that. Anytime the county takes USFS or BLM to court over illegal closures, the prime example used in all court cases by BOTH federal agencies are the motorcyclist. Yes, every group needs to be "properly" educated, but please don't set there and point fingers, paint everyone else as the bad guy and then pat your group on the back as the good guy that does NO damage.

Sorry, I can only speak for my experience in CA, never ridden in TX. Here two wheelers tend to be more organized and belong to clubs/groups or maybe that's just my limited experience. I just know that when I go to an "OHV park" I see the idiots on quads mostly that have no idea what they're doing, don't see that on motorcycles. As I said don't flame me, I'm not putting one above the other, just what I see and hear. And yes, I am connected with this stuff, way too connected, just ask my DW!