I know the weight topic has been beat to death on this forum, but I may have just come to a realization and after searching, I can't find the answer to my question. The weight capacities of my TV and 5th wheel are below. So here it goes.From what I've read here and what I've been told by Ford, the weight ratings are based on what the vehicle can STOP. So going by the ratings below, my truck can STOP a 5th wheel that weighs up to 15,200lbs. Everyone talks about the GVWR and the pin weight.Is the pin weight subtracted from the trailer weight? The pin weight is 2175lbs of the 12,201lbs trailer weight, right? So the truck is carrying 2175lbs, and towing 10,026lbs? I guess the real question is, if the GCWR is below the 23,500lbs weight rating, but because of the pin weight, is above the 10,000lbs GVWR but below the 6,000lbs GAWR, am I actually considered overweight when it comes to STOPPING the vehicle? When it comes down to it, just because I may be below the 10,000lbs GVWR, I've still got another 10,000lbs of trailer to stop. And if you do the math, with an 18% pin weight (based on Keystone website calculations) of the 15,200lbs TV capacity, there is no way you can be under GVWR unless you have a 160lbs driver with no passenger. So, does the GVWR really matter when I'm towing a 5th wheel or just when I'm hauling a load of rock without a trailer?I have a 2012 F250 Diesel. All weights are per 2012 Ford towing guide or actual scale weight.Truck weight w/o passengers 7100GVWR 10,000Max 5th Wheel towing 15,200GCWR 23,500Rear Axle GAWR 6,000Looking at purchasing 2010 Montana 3750FLF. All weights per Keystone website.Dry weight 12201Hitch weight 2175Carry Capacity 3474

Not sure where you got the idea of GCWR being what you can stop. The brakes on your truck are designed to stop your truck, not the trailer too. Your truck brakes are designed to stop the truck at GVWR or the weight rating of the axles. The trailer has it's own brakes to stop it. Weight is weight no matter if hauling gravel or towing a trailer. There is no way your truck brakes are designed to stop 23,000 lbs any more then my Ranger's brakes are designed to stop 9500lbs. For example, my current rig has a GCWR of 5020lbs and two 3500lb axles on the trailer for total braking of 12,000lbs. Combined, the stopping distance is shorter then with the truck alone because of the extra weight/traction on the truck keeping the abs from kicking in as quick.In reality, when towing a trailer and especially in a panic stop when the trailer brakes engage extra trailer weight is transferred to the hitch/truck because of the momentum of the mass above the trailer axles. Contrary to what many believe here, the truck will not break, explode, destruct because of the momentary overload.

I for one would be interested in seeing the documentation you are talking about from "Ford"..From what I've read here and what I've been told by Ford, the weight ratings are based on what the vehicle can STOP. So going by the ratings below, my truck can STOP a 5th wheel that weighs up to 15,200lbs. If the pin weight, is above the 10,000lbs GVWR but below the 6Is the pin weight subtracted from the trailer weight? The pin weight is 2175lbs of the 12,201lbs trailer weight, right? So the truck is carrying 2175lbs, and towing 10,026lbs?

I've got to differ a little with D. Brakes are designed to stop the gross COMBINED vehicle weight. They'd be in serious legal difficulty if they posted that a truck could haul & tow that weight without being able to stop it. Might not stop it very fast though and that's why anything over 3k has to have brakes (think that's in all states, but not certain). I will add though that you'd be right at your maximum and a 3/4 ton truck is almost always just a beefed up 1/2 ton. While I've seen many of them towing large 5ers, I personally wouldn't do it - that's why I insisted on trading my old 3/4 in when LOML said she wanted a Monty. I towed a 27' TT with the old truck for four years and about 40,000 miles, and the difference is amazing. Our F350 dually towing our Monty is a whole different world, much more comfortable, stable and easier to drive.

I went through that exact thing with Furd in 2003. We bought a 2003 Furd F250 crew cab short bed diesel, then with Furd's tow guid in hand, we went trailer shopping. Found our trailer that was under the weight Furd's tow guide said the truck would handle. Picked the trailer up on a Friday evening and returned to the RV dealer on Saturday. The combined rig nearly beat us to a pulp on or way home. RV dealer kept the combined rig for close to a week and put over 100 miles on it checking and trying various things to smooth out the ride. RV dealer offered our money back on the trailer but assured us the problem had to be with the truck since they had sold the identical trailer to a lot of folks driving the same model truck. Since that model trailer was the only model they stocked that had a bedroom head height I could stand up in, I talked to the Furd dealer first. Furd sent an engineer from Kansas City to check it out. He couldn't find anything obvious, but after driving the rig agreed there was a problem. He went back with a copy of my scale tickets that confirmed that my trailer was well under the tow guide limits. Also, my axle weights for the truck were under their individual limits. About a week later, I got a phone call from the Furd zone manager. He congratulated me for having a problem that had generated the longest chain of internal email he had ever seen. When I asked for a copy, the red flags went up. "COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL" was the reply. Bottom line, according to him, was that I had bought the wrong truck! Even though I was well under on all individual weights, when the two truck axle weights were added, I was over the GVWR of the truck by 500lbs. Suddenly, it was no longer Furd's problem, even though all my trailer weights were well below the tow guide limits. The zone manager tried to explain that my pin weight was the problem, even though the tow guide stated that the pin weight MUST be between 15% and 25% of the gross trailer weight. Mine was 20%. Bottom line is that I now drive a 3500 Chevy CCLB diesel because Furd offered less than average trade value for my 4 month old, 4500 mile F350, even though I was told they were including an additional $2,000 on the trade because of my problems. Chevy dealer beat the offer and did so without owing me any good will. Sour grapes?? You bet!

drillagent wrote:I know the weight topic has been beat to death on this forum, but I may have just come to a realization and after searching, I can't find the answer to my question. The weight capacities of my TV and 5th wheel are below. So here it goes.From what I've read here and what I've been told by Ford, the weight ratings are based on what the vehicle can STOP. So going by the ratings below, my truck can STOP a 5th wheel that weighs up to 15,200lbs. Everyone talks about the GVWR and the pin weight.Is the pin weight subtracted from the trailer weight? The pin weight is 2175lbs of the 12,201lbs trailer weight, right? So the truck is carrying 2175lbs, and towing 10,026lbs? I guess the real question is, if the GCWR is below the 23,500lbs weight rating, but because of the pin weight, is above the 10,000lbs GVWR but below the 6,000lbs GAWR, am I actually considered overweight when it comes to STOPPING the vehicle? When it comes down to it, just because I may be below the 10,000lbs GVWR, I've still got another 10,000lbs of trailer to stop. And if you do the math, with an 18% pin weight (based on Keystone website calculations) of the 15,200lbs TV capacity, there is no way you can be under GVWR unless you have a 160lbs driver with no passenger. So, does the GVWR really matter when I'm towing a 5th wheel or just when I'm hauling a load of rock without a trailer?I have a 2012 F250 Diesel. All weights are per 2012 Ford towing guide or actual scale weight.Truck weight w/o passengers 7100GVWR 10,000Max 5th Wheel towing 15,200GCWR 23,500Rear Axle GAWR 6,000Looking at purchasing 2010 Montana 3750FLF. All weights per Keystone website.Dry weight 12201Hitch weight 2175Carry Capacity 3474First, do yourself a favor and forget dry weight...no one will tow a 5er "dry", It appears that the 5er's GVW that you are looking at will be 15,675....odds are you may never fill to the 5er's rated GVWR,( but don't know how you or anyone else would know that until you fill it up , then weigh it), but it is probably FAR more realistic than a 5er's dry/empty weight... (maybe somewhere in the middle? approx 14,000#)....which might give you a more "realistic" pin weight of, (using manufacturers "suggested" 18%), would make pin weight a more realistic 2520# GVWR of your truck is 10,000#...supposedly meaning that you shouldn't load your truck with fuel, people, pets, supplies, trailer hitch and 5er's pin weight to over that 10,000# weight...BUT, most on these forums, unlike me, use the trucks RAWR to figure how much they can load their truck to...so if you weigh your truck and rear axle weight shows a weight of 3,000#, you still have 3,000# of payload you can load your truck to....much easier way to get every ounce of your truck you can, while also getting rid of any buffer you might have, unless you go with tires that will handle more weight, then you could even load to OVER your RAWR recommendation due to having tires that will handle more weight.GCWR is the combined weight of the truck and the 5er, no matter where you put the weight..pull on the scales and it's total weight ......period...very simple...if truck weighs 10,000# and the 5er weights 13,500#, you are at your trucks GCWR of 23,500#, but again, to most in here, it's just a number that doesn't matter, it's not a number that is enforced, it's not illegal and most do it all the time from everything I read on these forums when I post something really simple, like trying to stay within a truck manufacturers recommended limits...a truly silly concept.As also stated, your trailer brakes brake the trailer in correlation with your truck brakes braking the truck..Seeing as how there have been more than several of us in here whose 5er cable has, at one time or other, malfunctioned, or become disconnected, (as it did once in my case), at that point....your truck WILL have to stop both the trailer and your truck...been there, done that, got the T-shirt...can be hairy, but it may never happen to you, so don't worry about it, it it does, trucks brakes have to stop entire load.I would want to know the GVW of your 5er and go from there...to me it's hard to "guess" how much you'll load your 5er to, so a weight somewhere in the middle of "dry weight" and GVW would be far more practical to use than an unrealistic "dry weight", which no one will be towing....My company manufacturers brakes, what some say in here about brakes and what is an actual truth can be two worlds apart...having had a disconnected cable from my 5er to my truck, (5er was 16,000#), going down a long steep grade...yeah, the truck brakes can stop the whole load, BUT, it wasn't as efficient as one would hope....but I'm just speaking from experience and being in the business of designing and manufacturing , I do know a little bit about that aspect of the truckBottom line, most will tell you not to worry about GCWR or GVWR..., I'm one of those fools who tends to try to err to the side of manufacturers recommendations. You may be over your trucks GVWR, but not it's RAWR....you might be over the trucks GCWR, but others will tell you they do it all the time, no big deal, hook up and go....you sure won't be pulled over or get in trouble about it, so that's a worry you really don't need to linger on.Almost everyone on these forums ignores GVWR and GCWR...so you should be fine...i'm one of the few that believes those numbers should mean something and try to stay within them, but not a big deal one way or the other.you should be just fine as you will be told by the majority of towers in here, most will frown on my post and resort to name calling, but it's all good....I'm use to it...You have a newer truck, you should be fine TON's of people tow really heavy with 3/4 ton trucks and there is no carnage on the roads and you certainly won't be pulled over for what your towing, so that is one worry you can forget about....Your truck, your 5er, your money, your decison...actually believe you'll be ok.You have a newer 3/4 ton truck, shouldn't be an issue.

GCWR vs GVWR question | Good Sam Community

48 Replies

goducks10
Explorer
Mar 18, 2014
To the OP, the RAS will raise the rear 1" unloaded. It will not be adjustable. If after you install it and you don't get enough lift then you are SOL. I have used both and airbags are way better. 100% adjustable. Not sure why you would be leery about air bags. Guys run them for years without problems.
The RAS is quick and easy to install that's for sure, but the ride is a little stiffer IMO. Bags take a couple hrs but give a better ride when loaded. JMHO
BillB3857
Explorer
Mar 18, 2014
That's what both the RV dealer and I thought. Furd held on to the fact that you can't just use the individual axle ratings to see if your truck is overloaded or not. You MUST go by the GVWR, which is less than the sum of the two axle ratings. Just shows to go ya that you can't believe everything that you read. The day after I traded the Furd off, since the Furd zone manager told me that I bought the wrong truck, I got a call from the Furd dealer service manager. He wanted to know if I had already traded the truck. When I told him I had, he said I had a perfect case for a "buy back". My problem was I had a brand new RV I couldn't use and the buy back process could take close to a year with no guarantee that it would really happen. I simply moved on and will tell my story to anybody willing to listen.
JIMNLIN
Explorer III
Mar 17, 2014
OP says wrote:
After being left holding the bag by Furd, when I got my Chevy I made a trip to the scales again, loaded to the max, and worked up this chart.

Scale Ticket Information
Empty Loaded
Steer Axle 4200 4620
Drive Axle 3140 5560
Truck Weight 7340 10180
Trailer Axles (Combined) 8040
Gross Combined Weight (GCW) 18220

Looking at Fords Fleet specs IMO your F250 has a 5250 FAWR and a 6100 RAWR. Your loaded and hooked up axle weights are well under the max. Looks like a good match there.

Your pin weight is the difference in the the trucks loaded rear axle (5560 lbs) and the truck unloaded rear axle (3140 lbs) = 2420 lb pin weight.

Looks like a well matched combo.
JIMNLIN
Explorer III
Mar 17, 2014
So, based on the above facts, what is the difference between the brakes on a F250 and the brakes on a F350? Are the F350 brakes bigger? I've searched online and I can't find any difference. If they have the same brakes, how can the F350 carry more?

See my reply and Fleet Fords clicky I made on page one of this thread.
Looks like Fords simply sizes the F250/F350 SRW brakes to 7000 RAWR which is the highest RAWR.
It makes sense to simply manufacturer 7k brakes and install them on the all the Super Duty 3/4 and one ton SRW trucks rear axles with over a dozen different GVWRs.
Me_Again
Explorer III
Mar 17, 2014
drillagent wrote:

Unfortunately, I don't have the camper package on my F250. However, I intend on getting the Roadmaster Active Suspension system put on. I'm a little leery of air bags and I've heard good things about the active suspension. I'll also look into getting an extra spring put on the truck too. I have to admit, I'm getting a little scared about getting the Montana 3750FL the DW wants. Especially with the Yellowstone/Glacier National Park trip we're planning.

Why don't you go to a good spring shop before installing band aids(RAS)?

Do your current rear tires have the capacity to handle the pin weight of the Montana? Chris
drillagent
Explorer
Mar 17, 2014
spud1957 wrote:
drillagent wrote:
spud1957 wrote:
Page 247 on the 2011 Super Duty User Manual. It specifically states brakes are designed for GVWR not GCWR.

"GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) – is the maximum allowable weight of the vehicle and the loaded trailer – including all cargo and
passengers – that the vehicle can handle without risking damage. Important: The towing vehicle’s braking system is rated for operation at GVWR, not at GCWR. Separate functional brakes should be used for safe control of towed vehicles and for trailers where the GCW of the towing vehicle plus the trailer exceed the GVWR of the towing vehicle. The GCW must never exceed the GCWR."

So, based on the above facts, what is the difference between the brakes on a F250 and the brakes on a F350? Are the F350 brakes bigger? I've searched online and I can't find any difference. If they have the same brakes, how can the F350 carry more?

F350 has an overload spring, a 4" rear block as opposed to a 2" on the 250 and a larger GVWR when you select 18" tires. That's it. All other components are identical, EVEN THE AXLES!!!!

If you have an F250 with the camper package, you get the same overload springs along with a rear sway bar.

Unfortunately, I don't have the camper package on my F250. However, I intend on getting the Roadmaster Active Suspension system put on. I'm a little leery of air bags and I've heard good things about the active suspension. I'll also look into getting an extra spring put on the truck too. I have to admit, I'm getting a little scared about getting the Montana 3750FL the DW wants. Especially with the Yellowstone/Glacier National Park trip we're planning.
BillB3857
Explorer
Mar 16, 2014
After being left holding the bag by Furd, when I got my Chevy I made a trip to the scales again, loaded to the max, and worked up this chart.

Scale Ticket Information
Empty Loaded
Steer Axle 4200 4620
Drive Axle 3140 5560
Truck Weight 7340 10180
Trailer Axles (Combined) 8040
Gross Combined Weight (GCW) 18220

Trailer Weight (GCW Minus Empty Truck Weight) 10880
Trailer Pin Weight (Trailer Weight Minus Trailer Axle) 2840
Trailer Pin Weight (Truck Loaded Minus Truck Empty) 2840

Trailer Axle Rating (each) 5200

Trailer Tire Capacity (3042 X 4) 12168
Truck Front Tire Capacity (2430 X 2) 4860
Truck Rear Tire Capacity (2150 X 4) 8600

Rating Loaded
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) 11400 10180
Front Axle Weight Rating (FAWR) 4800 4620
Rear Axle Weight Rating (RAWR) 8550 5560

edit(Sorry about the tabs. Looked good on entry but somehow the site garbles the tabs/spacing. It even looked OK when I opened it to edit and try to straighten it out.)
spud1957
Explorer
Mar 16, 2014
drillagent wrote:
spud1957 wrote:
Page 247 on the 2011 Super Duty User Manual. It specifically states brakes are designed for GVWR not GCWR.

"GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) – is the maximum allowable weight of the vehicle and the loaded trailer – including all cargo and
passengers – that the vehicle can handle without risking damage. Important: The towing vehicle’s braking system is rated for operation at GVWR, not at GCWR. Separate functional brakes should be used for safe control of towed vehicles and for trailers where the GCW of the towing vehicle plus the trailer exceed the GVWR of the towing vehicle. The GCW must never exceed the GCWR."

So, based on the above facts, what is the difference between the brakes on a F250 and the brakes on a F350? Are the F350 brakes bigger? I've searched online and I can't find any difference. If they have the same brakes, how can the F350 carry more?

F350 has an overload spring, a 4" rear block as opposed to a 2" on the 250 and a larger GVWR when you select 18" tires. That's it. All other components are identical, EVEN THE AXLES!!!!

If you have an F250 with the camper package, you get the same overload springs along with a rear sway bar.
drillagent
Explorer
Mar 16, 2014
spud1957 wrote:
Page 247 on the 2011 Super Duty User Manual. It specifically states brakes are designed for GVWR not GCWR.

"GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) – is the maximum allowable weight of the vehicle and the loaded trailer – including all cargo and
passengers – that the vehicle can handle without risking damage. Important: The towing vehicle’s braking system is rated for operation at GVWR, not at GCWR. Separate functional brakes should be used for safe control of towed vehicles and for trailers where the GCW of the towing vehicle plus the trailer exceed the GVWR of the towing vehicle. The GCW must never exceed the GCWR."

So, based on the above facts, what is the difference between the brakes on a F250 and the brakes on a F350? Are the F350 brakes bigger? I've searched online and I can't find any difference. If they have the same brakes, how can the F350 carry more?
spud1957
Explorer
Mar 16, 2014
Sorry.

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GCWR vs GVWR question

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