Alignment settings goal review

Glenn:

Just learned about the SPC Alignment PN 24130. Heres the pdf file for the SPC 24130

It has a wider range then the 594 and would give you an extra degree of caster beyond the 594. Sorry I did not know about this before you went to the 594.

ON EDIT: IT LOOKS LIKE THE SPC24130 IS FOR A E350/E450 4x4, MY SORRY

lawtonglenn wrote:
is there a secret decoder ring from the A chart to the C chart?

I didn't even know there was a C chart, and I don't see the M/V or N/D readings on it

:)

The E150 chart (which I have called Chart A) is a more populated chart and gives better resolution of the adjustment range of the 594 sleeves. It is a great chart to fine tune to a higher resolution then is offered for the E250/E350 (and we think E450).

Because the E150 chart goes from -2.5 to +2.5 range it must mean the E150 upper to lower ball joints are closer to each other then the E250/E350/E450.

To translate between the two charts, for example +1.5 on Chart A:

becomes ((1.5 / 2.5) = (x / 2.0))

x = +1.2 on Chart C.

Here is a link to the 59400.pdf document.

Once again Glenn, thank you for the wealth of information you have provided and in such a professional presentation. :)

On edit: There appears to be a couple of errors in the 59400.pdf Chart C:
1. For the Drivers Side +1.0 Caster and -1.5 Camber it is posted as "B over K". I believe it should read "K over B".
2. For the Drivers Side -1.25 Caster and -1.0 Camber it is posted as "T over A". I believe it should read closer to "H over R" otherwise there would be two at "T over A" (see also Caster -1.25 and Camber -0.25).

Here is an alignment report found on the internet witout any supporting information. By the fact the CAMBER and CASTER has been adjusted seems to imply the use of adjustable sleeves of some sort.

If this report were to represent the norm then it would seem a +caster in the high 3.0s to low 4.0s (just like Glenns report) is more the norm then being above +5.0.

is there a secret decoder ring from the A chart to the C chart?

I didn't even know there was a C chart, and I don't see the M/V or N/D readings on it

:)

I have translated the Drivers N/D and Passengers M/V from Glenns 59400.pdf Chart A (1992-96 E-150) to Chart C (1992-98 E-250, E-350 and what we believe is also E450).

The translated data is:

Drivers Side Camber is set at -1.6 Degrees giving +0.4 Degrees Camber
Passeng Side Camber is set at -1.4 Degrees giving +0.3 Degrees Camber

Drivers Side Caster is set at +1.2 Degrees giving +2.9 Degrees Caster
Passeng Side Caster is set at +1.4 Degrees giving +3.7 Degrees Caster

The Neutral Drivers Side Camber is +2.0 Degrees
The Neutral Passeng Side Camber is +1.7 Degrees

The Neutral Drivers Side Caster is +1.7 Degrees
The Neutral Passeng Side Caster is +2.3 Degrees
(Neutral being if the sleeves set in the middle at 0.0 and 0.0 Degs)

It is clear my idea of setting the Ingalls 594 Caster at MAX +2.0 and accept the resulting Camber is not going to work for lightly loaded front ends where there is a high neutral +Camber to be dealt with.

Also, the neutral Caster range of +1.7 to +2.3 is not what I expected to see. From the alignment report I received from Kal Tire on our 2004 E450 (a report generated BEFORE adding + 2.0 Caster) I expected to see a neutral +Caster in the range of +3.0 to +3.5. At the moment I have no explanation why such a large difference. Something to work on.

Bear in mind that camber can have a significant effect on tire wear and is set pretty close to zero because of that. Also, going more positive will put more load on the outer wheel bearings which have a lower load capability than the inner wheel bearings because of the size difference.

Harvard wrote:
...
Maybe if you could take a picture or two of the top of the upper ball joints and post it here we might be able to add some insight. If and when you do take pictures try and get an angle that will help us see the slot in the bottom sleeve because it will be covered by the apron of the top sleeve.
...

Attached find pics of the Ingalls as currently set, a front view showing
the slightly positive camber, and side views showing the pitch.
The slot on the Ingalls was difficult to photo, so I marked it on the pic.

The results are Passenger = M/V and Drivers = N/D
I have also attached the chart, and it looks to me like I can:
gain 1.0 pos caster at the expense of 1.5 pos camber (Driver)
gain 0.75 pos caster at the expense of 1.0 pos camber (Pass)

If I did that it would change the settings

DRIVER side Caster from +2.9 to +3.9
PASS side Caster from +3.7 to +4.5

DRIVER side Camber from +0.4 to +1.9 (out of spec 1.5max)
PASS side Camber from +0.3 to +1.3

Am I reading it right?
Is it worth doing?

Thanks in advance!

Caster Setting Pic

Marked up Chart pic

ps... yes, I have a new electric step motor on order :)

lawtonglenn wrote:
...

LF Toe was +0.61 deg (out) now +0.03 deg (out)
RF Toe was +0.63 deg (out) now +0.03 deg (out)

these changes I'm happy with, I would have preferred a little toe-in, but 0.03 degrees is pretty close to zero

....

I just noticed this, to the best of my knowledge, if the TOE is a + number then it is a TOE IN.

The Ford E3450/E450 spec for TOE is +0.06 Degrees +/- 0.25. Therefor the range would be +0.31 (TOE IN ?) to -0.19 (TOE OUT ?).

lawtonglenn wrote:
I just purchased my RV, and read and re-read and re-re-read this thread before bringing it in for an alignment. :) Just looking at it I knew it had too much positive camber, and it had worn the outside edge of the right front tire in only 7000 miles from new. (After looking at the "Before" readings this edge wear was likely more from the excessive toeout than the excessive postive camber)

I brought it to a place that does mostly medium trucks, but also a fair amount of cars. I purchased the Ingals 59400 eccentrics and supplied them. I told them exactly what I wanted (at least +5 caster, +0.5 more RH caster, near zero toe, near zero camber).

They installed the Ingalls, and improved the caster, but could not get anywhere near the +5 that I asked for. They said even with these eccentrics in, caster was now maxed out.

Question: Should I look for another alignment shop? If so, does anyone know an alignment shop experienced with this exact situation in the Northeast? NH, VT, MA?

Here are the details:

2007 Gulf Stream 6211 Class C 21' on a 2006 Ford E350 V10

LF Camber was +1.4 now +0.4
RF Camber was +2.3 now +0.3

LF Toe was +0.61 deg (out) now +0.03 deg (out)
RF Toe was +0.63 deg (out) now +0.03 deg (out)

these changes I'm happy with, I would have preferred a little toe-in, but 0.03 degrees is pretty close to zero

LF caster was +1.6 now +2.9
RF caster was +2.3 now +3.7

well, it did improve, and they did get more RF caster, but I was really hoping for a bigger improvement. Do you think that this is all I will be able to get even with the Ingalls bushings? Or do you think the tech just wasn't skilled enough. I know they were attentive and cooperative, and they did understand exactly what I wanted, but enthusiasm without requisite talent doesn't always make the goal line.

The RV seems to drive straight down the road... we are headed on a 6hr trip Thursday (to race at Pocono) so I will be able to see how it behaves then, but it certainly doesn't have a strong "return to center" steering

any help would be greatly appreciated!

I think I can see where this is going to go IF we do get the current Ingalls 594 settings.

The executive overview: A shorter and lighter E350 chassis may sit "high in the saddle". Because of less weight (both front and rear) we may have a "from the factory" more then normal +CAMBER (front end sitting high) and less then normal +CASTER (rear end sitting even higher).

If we were to assume the factory installed sleeves were CAMBER and CASTER neutral, and our desired results are best CAMBER and accept the CASTER, then the best we could do with the 594 sleeves is:

LF CAMBER was at +1.4 subtract 1.0 = +0.4 Degrees
LF CASTER was at +1.6 add available 1.75 = +3.35 Degrees.

RF CAMBER was at +2.3 subtract 1.75 = +0.55 Degrees
RF CASTER was at +2.3 add available 1.0 = +3.3 Degrees.

The resulting CROSS CAMBER is good at 0.15 Degrees.
The resulting CROSS CASTER is +0.05 Degrees, best at -0.50.

If this was the situation is my driveway I would TRY changing the RH to be:

RF CAMBER was at +2.3 subtract 1.50 = +0.80 Degrees.
RF CASTER was at +2.3 add the available 1.25 = +3.55 Degrees.

The resulting CROSS CAMBER is OK at 0.25 Degrees.
The resulting CROSS CASTER is OK at -0.20 Degrees.

So, I am retracting by initial opinion that the numbers after installing the 594s look to be suspect.

So the question becomes, which is better, sacrificing ideal CAMBER for +CASTER or sacrificing +CASTER for ideal CAMBER?

The answer may depend on SHORT 350s or LONG 450s. JMO