Forum Discussion

Explorer

Dec 16, 2016

Diesel Comfort Advantage 30-34 Foot?

I read through the most recent gas vs diesel threads just now, they're all from earlier in the year so I wanted to start a new one with our specific question(s) that aren't clear after reading those.

My wife and I are shopping for a 30-34' rig (it's just us two and we do well in small spaces, not big people) and we may bring a small motorcycle or scooter on our trips (given Uber and other options for getting around these days), other than that no towing. We are in the northeast (NJ) and will primarily be going south or southwest, so not much concern about getting up big hills. We're both still working, so vacations for now but that will lead into hopefully spending the winter months down south in two years or so when we're both done working.

My main question is what is meant by diesel being more comfortable/driveable? I see that comment again in the new On Ramp article by Bob Livingston in Motorhome magazine. Is is because gas is spring suspension and diesel is air? Because of the overhang in the back of gas due to the front engine, and associated noise?

I'm wondering how many of those posts are from folks who tried gassers back in 2000-2001 since a few appeared to be so. I'm sure a lot has changed. I saw the excellent, detailed summary in another thread and copying it below my post here below, but not sure what years that's based on or whether all of that still holds true for our choices. We're looking at used Tiffin, Newell, Newmar, Winnebago, Monaco in the 30-34 foot range, hopefully 2011 or newer. Do gassers in that sector have these issues, since they are higher quality manufacturers?

Also, any recommendations would be welcome :-) Thanks in advance for any help.

Class A gas have: Spring suspension, shorter fuel range (80 gallon fuel tank vs 100 - 150 on a diesel) , and depending on the manufacturer can be very loud. It depends on how long you travel away from hookups. There is no question that diesel engines last longer.

Class A gas pros:

Lots of floor plans available
Lots of inventory
Lower initial cost
May have disc brakes
Lots of floor plans available

Class A gas cons:
Poor towing capacity typically no more than 5,000#
Very loud inside depending on floor and doghouse insulation
Longer rear overhang (be careful getting fuel)
More frequent service than diesel
Service centers are typically only at Ford Truck and motorhome shops that have limited hours of operation
Harsher ride with spring suspension (Lots of squeaks and rattles)
Coach systems are not as integrated
May need suspension and or steering upgrades depending on the manufacturer. (Safe T Plus, Roadmaster Reflex Steering stabilizer, etc.)
Lower fuel economy less than 10 MPG is common 5 - 8 is very common in older units (Worse if towing a toad)
Shorter range typically 300 - 500 miles
Smaller tanks (80 gallon fuel is common, 30 - 80 gallon fresh water, 40 or less gallon grey and black, 10 - 30 gallons of propane)

Class A diesel pusher benefits:
Quiet ride with almost no engine noise
Soft stable ride due to full air suspension
Typically have well integrated coach systems
Automatic Generator start (depends on year)
Panoramic front view
Very quiet diesel generator (1800 RPM vs. 3600 RPM)
Excellent turning radius for the size of the coach (a 33’ DP will usually have a 208” wheelbase and a 55 degree wheel cut and can turn around in a standard street)
Fantastic, fuel capacity (Typically starts at 90 Gallons and goes up to 200 gallons of diesel depending on chassis) gives a realistic range of 1,000 miles on flat ground.
Excellent water tank capacity – typically starting at 90 gallons and ending up at about 150 gallons
Other tanks are also usually larger
Well integrated coach systems
More living space for a given coach size
Engine exhaust braking system (Pac Brake, variable vane turbo or other great system) These types of brake systems can hold a coach and toad on a long down grade without using the service brakes
Usually any truck diesel shop can work on them and many are open 24x7
Chassis and drivetrain last a very long time
Long service intervals
Better manufacturer support
Have tow ratings starting at 5,000# to 50,000#, depending on coach some very inexpensive units have tow ratings of 10,000#
Large battery banks (4 large house batteries and 2 chassis batteries)
Large residential refrigerator (less common on older units)
Heated wet bay
Neatly run wiring (Some high end well made gas coaches have neatly run wiring)
Weight ratings starting at about 26,000 GVWR up to 55,000# GVWR with a tag axle with GCWR ratings of 30,000 up to 80,000
Better fuel economy for similar sized units

Class A diesel pusher cons:
Limited inventory
Higher initial cost
Higher cost per hour for service
Typically more complex due to better integrated systems
Limited floor plans (I only found a few floor plans that had bunk beds and a 10,000# tow rating)

Class A

Ivylog
Explorer III
Dec 27, 2016
I question why 30-34'... you give up way more than you gain and I started at 36'. That short you will have trouble finding a DP that handles well plus you do not need a diesel for that little weight. I advise to buy more MH than you think you need...ONE TIME. Yes we boondock and stay in NP, SP, BLM, and USFS CGs in our 42' for 7+ days without cutting back on water usage.
Safaribeachouse
Explorer
Dec 27, 2016
Something else to consider, is buying a high quality older coach that was well taken care of, instead of a newer gasser. The older coaches have way less emissions and electronics and are very durable. Also the ones that are well maintained and taken care of, more than likely have most if not all the bugs worked out of it. The odds of finding an older quality short diesel pusher is better than looking at the newer picks. Safari made diesel pushers as short as 30' and their Trek models were even shorter, also they had great and spacious floor plans. Alpine, Newmar, Monaco and others also had pretty good short diesel pushers.
What you are use to will also play a roll. I'm one of those that can't stand high reving noisy engines. I don't know about the GM 8.1L, but the way the Ford V10 revs out and screams, just drives me bananas! You just breath on the throttle and she will drop two or three gears, if the transmission had a better shift pattern, I would consider it. Having had both gasser and diesel pushers, I would say the torque, braking power and peace and quiet is by far better, but to each their own. You need to pick what works for you and your spouse, if you have one.

John
Busskipper
Explorer
Dec 17, 2016
Isaac-1 wrote:
I find when viewing these topics that there is a certain diesel bias in many of the replies. So let me respond as a fairly new Class A gasoline motorhome owner who happens to be fairly pro-diesel over all and share with you why I bought a gas coach. By pro diesel I mean I own a diesel powered pickup truck and at least 5 or 6 pieces of diesel powered equipment, and commonly deal with several others including medium duty diesel trucks.

1: I wanted a small Class A, most diesel Class A's are rear engine 32 ft minimum, and many of those have balance issues. Of the few front engine diesels that I considered, many had relatively small under powered diesel engines. The coach I ended up buying was also offered with 6.5L Chevy turbo diesel until 2001, I ended up buying a 2002 with the 8.1L Chevy Vortec gasoline powered version which has considerably more power than the 6.5 diesel 340 vs 180HP and 455 vs 385 torque, sure the gas engine revs higher, but when it comes down to it torque is torque.

2, My wife likes having a cool bed, and rarely uses blankets at night even in the winter, sleeping over a hot diesel engine would not be productive to domestic bliss for me.

3, The doghouse problem, I admit it can be an issue and I have owned class B camper vans in the past where the bulk and heat from the doghouse was a problem. Thankfully my Class A has a relatively low profile dog house compared to even the same model a couple of years earlier, so low in fact that I can walk across the edges of it without stepping up. And heat from this doghouse has not been an issue. Sure there is engine noise with a front engine, but there are things that can help here too, such as modern sound proofing products made by dynamat.

4, range, fuel economy and tank size, my 28 ft (well really 29.5 bumper to bumper) 2002 Safari Trek gets roughly 10 mpg and has a 60 gallon fuel tank so roughly a 600 mile range, personally I am never going to drive over 300-400 without wanting to stop and stretch so anything more would not make a difference to me. As to the tanks I have an 80 gallon fresh water tank, as well as a 40 gallon gray and 40 gallon black water tank, so not that much smaller than the lower end mentioned above.

5, Why do I need a 10,000+ pound towing capacity, I don't plan to pull a travel trailer around behind my motorhome, the 5,000 pound capacity I have is plenty for any TOAD I may buy.

Now sure there are downsides to my gasoline powered motorhome, most noteably the suspension, thankfully the previous owner spent over $2,500 addressing this and I have added another $500 getting it close to the point where I am happy with it and hope some new shock absorbers in a few months will get me the rest of the way.

p.s here is a comparison of a low profile 02 doghouse like mine vs the doghouse in a '97 Trek using pictures I found online

The picture needs to be smaller - but .... help
Stormy_Eyes
Explorer
Dec 17, 2016
For the usage proposed by the OP, a gasser likely will suffice. One might find a short used diesel of desired length in good condition with the right floor plan....it could happen, but shorter diesels are not that common. One is likely to have many more choices of used gasser in that size range. That is what I found as I shopped for rigs trying to stay 35 ft or less. We ended up in a gasser. Like the Op, we are not towing, and if we ever do, we will want a small toad.

If you see an appealing diesel in your size and price range certainly go see it and test drive it. Meanwhile tour and test drive gassers. If possible, experience the difference for yourself. Easy for me to say, I did not found that appealing diesel of the size I wanted, so I never got a test drive in a smaller DP. But after driving some gassers, I felt confident that the dissadvantages of the gasser would all be acceptable to us.

I wish I thought newest gas units are now way better made than the early 2000 vintage were when new. We are now limited one chassis maker and people seem to feel they need handling fixes from day one. I would not discount the impressions of those who had gasser several years ago. The engine heat and noise are considerations, especially if one drives a lot (doesn't sound like your plan now). Watch those cargo capacities, especially if one of you feels the need for lots of stuff. Also watch for heavy modification by prior owners (I saw one gasser with sizable and thick granite countertops; that rig must have been overweight).
Viewfinder
Explorer
Dec 17, 2016
Post 2011, gas or diesel for your use becomes a moot point. I don't think you will spend 15% of your time driving. Floorplan, floorplan, floorplan and if Mommas not happy, nobody's happy will make for a better answer for you. and I'll bet Round Valley is cold.

jim
Isaac-1
Explorer
Dec 17, 2016
I find when viewing these topics that there is a certain diesel bias in many of the replies. So let me respond as a fairly new Class A gasoline motorhome owner who happens to be fairly pro-diesel over all and share with you why I bought a gas coach. By pro diesel I mean I own a diesel powered pickup truck and at least 5 or 6 pieces of diesel powered equipment, and commonly deal with several others including medium duty diesel trucks.

1: I wanted a small Class A, most diesel Class A's are rear engine 32 ft minimum, and many of those have balance issues. Of the few front engine diesels that I considered, many had relatively small under powered diesel engines. The coach I ended up buying was also offered with 6.5L Chevy turbo diesel until 2001, I ended up buying a 2002 with the 8.1L Chevy Vortec gasoline powered version which has considerably more power than the 6.5 diesel 340 vs 180HP and 455 vs 385 torque, sure the gas engine revs higher, but when it comes down to it torque is torque.

2, My wife likes having a cool bed, and rarely uses blankets at night even in the winter, sleeping over a hot diesel engine would not be productive to domestic bliss for me.

3, The doghouse problem, I admit it can be an issue and I have owned class B camper vans in the past where the bulk and heat from the doghouse was a problem. Thankfully my Class A has a relatively low profile dog house compared to even the same model a couple of years earlier, so low in fact that I can walk across the edges of it without stepping up. And heat from this doghouse has not been an issue. Sure there is engine noise with a front engine, but there are things that can help here too, such as modern sound proofing products made by dynamat.

4, range, fuel economy and tank size, my 28 ft (well really 29.5 bumper to bumper) 2002 Safari Trek gets roughly 10 mpg and has a 60 gallon fuel tank so roughly a 600 mile range, personally I am never going to drive over 300-400 without wanting to stop and stretch so anything more would not make a difference to me. As to the tanks I have an 80 gallon fresh water tank, as well as a 40 gallon gray and 40 gallon black water tank, so not that much smaller than the lower end mentioned above.

5, Why do I need a 10,000+ pound towing capacity, I don't plan to pull a travel trailer around behind my motorhome, the 5,000 pound capacity I have is plenty for any TOAD I may buy.

Now sure there are downsides to my gasoline powered motorhome, most noteably the suspension, thankfully the previous owner spent over $2,500 addressing this and I have added another $500 getting it close to the point where I am happy with it and hope some new shock absorbers in a few months will get me the rest of the way.

p.s here is a comparison of a low profile 02 doghouse like mine vs the doghouse in a '97 Trek using pictures I found online
CVD
Explorer
Dec 16, 2016
Diver4242 wrote:
...Excellent turning radius for the size of the coach (a 33’ DP will usually have a 208” wheelbase and a 55 degree wheel cut and can turn around in a standard street)...

The short wheelbase on shorter DP’s can also be a negative (reduced high speed stability). The Tiffin 33AA is 35’ long with a 198” WB. Most 35’ gas coaches have 220” or 228” WB. How much loss of stability and how the short DP’s handle compared to a similar sized gas coach is something I’ve been pondering (no replies to my question on this a couple days ago). Good luck with your research.
Jim
Explorer
Dec 16, 2016
Diver4242 wrote:
I'm the OP. To clarify, that long list of gas/diesel pros/cons was from someone else in another thread. I included it for comment. What is meant by the "doghouse"?

Refers to a gasser engine cover. It's that huge bump you see right between the driver and passenger seats.

A diesel pusher is the most common design for RVs with diesel engines (though they have been made with the engine up front, or in the middle of the RV) where the engine is under the rear of the coach so the floor up front is flat, and the engine noise is so far away as to be unnoticeable.

Many owners of gassers, however, enjoy the peace that comes from the front engine noise prohibiting conversation from whomever is in the passenger's seat.
mike_brez
Explorer
Dec 16, 2016
Diver4242 wrote:
What is meant by the "doghouse"?

That is we're you are going to be after you trade the gasser in for a DP with your wife.

It's the hump between the front seats were the engine sits in a gasser
ksg5000
Explorer
Dec 16, 2016
Depends on how your going to use your rig. Lots of miles/distance combined with need for towing capacity might clearly favor DP ... DP cost more and while their maintenance may sound like it's less frequent/less expensive I would argue when things need fixing in a diesel you better have a fat wallet.