Do I Really Need A Brake Buddy

rgatijnet1 wrote:

Bikeboy57 wrote:
Ask your insurance provider. You wouldn't want them to deny coverage if you had an accident.

They won't and can't if you are within the law.

Not just the law. If you are operating outside the chassis manufacturer specifications in a extremely negligent manner specifically if the RV chassis manufacturer states that a supplemental braking system is required for trailers over xx weight (typically 1,000#) and you are towing a car that weighs 3,000# that could be described as extreme negligence or carelessness. If you could describe exigent circumstances that required towing without supplemental braking you may have some standing but I wouldn't try it.

MCA 61-1-101:
"(82) (a) "Trailer" means a vehicle, with or without motive power, other than a pole trailer, designed for carrying property and for being drawn by a motor vehicle and constructed so that no part of its weight rests on the towing vehicle."

Note that a "trailer" in Montana is designed to:
1. Carry "property" (not people)
2. Be "drawn by a motor vehicle". A towed motor vehicle is not designed to be towed, it must be modified to allow towing.

For those who are wondering what MCA61-1-101 (82)(b) says, here it is:
"(b) The term does not include a mobile home or a manufactured home, as defined in 15-1-101."
That, of course, has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, but I thought I might as well include it for information purposes.

So, in Montana are brakes required on a towed motor vehicle behind an RV?
It depends.
Can your RV comply with MCA 61-9-312 (4)?
" 61-9-312. Performance ability of brakes. On a dry, hard, approximately level stretch of highway free from loose material, a motor vehicle or combination of vehicles, upon application of the service brake, must be capable of stopping at a speed of 20 miles an hour within the following distances:
(1) 25 feet for passenger motor vehicles, except buses and pioneer vehicles;
(2) 40 feet for buses, trucks, and tractor trucks;
(3) 45 feet for motor vehicles registered or qualified to be registered as pioneer vehicles under 61-3-411(2)(a) when equipped with two-wheel brakes or 25 feet when equipped with four-wheel brakes;
(4) 40 feet for all combinations of vehicles; and
(5) 30 feet for motorcycles, quadricycles, and motor-driven cycles.

I doubt that anyone can deny that a motorhome towing a vehicle is a "combination of vehicles"!

msturtz wrote:

rgatijnet1 wrote:
Be sure to read every word of something you are quoting. For instance:
It shall be unlawful for any person, firm, partnership, association, or corporation to engage in the business of delivering by the driveaway or towaway methods vehicles not his or her own and of a type required to be registered under the laws of this state, without procuring a transporter's license in accordance with the provisions of this chapter.
To do what you quote requires a very specific vehicle transportation license which RV owners don't have.


I agree completely and I would hope that most RV owners are towing vehicles which they OWN so as not to be confused with a commercial operation where a special license is required.
None of that applies to an RV owner towing his own vehicle behind his own RV.
The fact remains, that for a private individual, towing his own vehicle, he does not have to have supplemental braking on the toad unless he can't stop within 40 feet from 20 MPH.
My lowly gas coach, loaded, with the Chevy HHR behind can stop in 27 feet. Yes, I tried it to see how bad your brakes have to be to exceed 40 feet. I would guess a DP with air brakes can stop in less distance than me.

I quoted the commercial statue to point out the safety requirements in towing vehicles in general. That said since RV use does NOT meet the legal definition of "Drive Away Tow Away operations" your point fails. We are back to the definition of a trailer. Drive away / tow away operations have a very specific FMCSA legal definition.

You are the expert and you obviously won't contact the people that actually enforce the laws of your State. Remember, if your supplemental braking system ever fails, I expect you to abandon your toad at the side of the road, period, no exceptions. :B

Bikeboy57 wrote:
Ask your insurance provider. You wouldn't want them to deny coverage if you had an accident.

They won't and can't if you are within the law.

rgatijnet1 wrote:
Be sure to read every word of something you are quoting. For instance:
It shall be unlawful for any person, firm, partnership, association, or corporation to engage in the business of delivering by the driveaway or towaway methods vehicles not his or her own and of a type required to be registered under the laws of this state, without procuring a transporter's license in accordance with the provisions of this chapter.
To do what you quote requires a very specific vehicle transportation license which RV owners don't have.


I agree completely and I would hope that most RV owners are towing vehicles which they OWN so as not to be confused with a commercial operation where a special license is required.
None of that applies to an RV owner towing his own vehicle behind his own RV.
The fact remains, that for a private individual, towing his own vehicle, he does not have to have supplemental braking on the toad unless he can't stop within 40 feet from 20 MPH.
My lowly gas coach, loaded, with the Chevy HHR behind can stop in 27 feet. Yes, I tried it to see how bad your brakes have to be to exceed 40 feet. I would guess a DP with air brakes can stop in less distance than me.

I quoted the commercial statue to point out the safety requirements in towing vehicles in general. That said since RV use does NOT meet the legal definition of "Drive Away Tow Away operations" your point fails. We are back to the definition of a trailer. Drive away / tow away operations have a very specific FMCSA legal definition. Please help me understand where there is a RV exemption in this definition?:

Driveaway-towaway operation means an operation in which an empty or unladen motor vehicle with one or more sets of wheels on the surface of the roadway is being transported:
(1) Between vehicle manufacturer's facilities;
(2) Between a vehicle manufacturer and a dealership or purchaser;
(3) Between a dealership, or other entity selling or leasing the vehicle, and a purchaser or lessee;
(4) To a motor carrier's terminal or repair facility for the repair of disabling damage (as defined in § 390.5) following a crash; or
(5) To a motor carrier's terminal or repair facility for repairs associated with the failure of a vehicle component or system; or
(6) By means of a saddle-mount or tow-bar.

Ask your insurance provider. You wouldn't want them to deny coverage if you had an accident.

Be sure to read every word of something you are quoting. For instance:
It shall be unlawful for any person, firm, partnership, association, or corporation to engage in the business of delivering by the driveaway or towaway methods vehicles not his or her own and of a type required to be registered under the laws of this state, without procuring a transporter's license in accordance with the provisions of this chapter.
To do what you quote requires a very specific vehicle transportation license which RV owners don't have.


I agree completely and I would hope that most RV owners are towing vehicles which they OWN so as not to be confused with a commercial operation where a special license is required.
None of that applies to an RV owner towing his own vehicle behind his own RV.
The fact remains, that for a private individual, towing his own vehicle, he does not have to have supplemental braking on the toad unless he can't stop within 40 feet from 20 MPH.
My lowly gas coach, loaded, with the Chevy HHR behind can stop in 27 feet. Yes, I tried it to see how bad your brakes have to be to exceed 40 feet. I would guess a DP with air brakes can stop in less distance than me.

rgatijnet1 wrote:

msturtz wrote:
Just a point of fact. A vehicle in tow for legal purposes is in fact a trailer. I can prove why.

Every time this subject comes up, some people always try to dig up some version of the law that they can interpret their own way. They always refuse to contact their own law enforcement agency because they have some tired old excuse that they can't believe them and it will never stand up in court etc, all BS.
In any case, in the State where you live, Washington, here is what the LAW says and the specific Statutes for you to confirm it.

RCW 46.37.340
Braking equipment required.
(3) Brakes on all wheels. Every vehicle shall be equipped with brakes acting on all wheels EXCEPT:
(c) Any vehicle being towed in driveaway or towaway operations, provided the combination of vehicles is capable of complying with the performance requirements of RCW 46.37.351.
RCW 46.37.351 says, C-4
All combinations of
vehicles in driveaway-
towaway must be able to stop in less than 40 feet at 20 MPH.

To review.....a "Vehicle in tow" is NOT a trailer, except in the minds and advertising brochures of the people that sell supplemental braking systems.
I do not advise driving without supplemental brakes BUT if your Brake Buddy, or other system fails, you do not have to abandon your toad on the side of the road. You can legally continue to drive to some place to get it fixed, or wherever else you want to go.
The OP asked a simple question and the answer is he should use the Brake Buddy, but he doesn't legally have to.

Thank you very much for the quote. It is very important when quoting law to understand the context of the law being quoted. In the instance above "drive away tow away operations" have a very defined meaning under FMCSA 390.5:
Driveaway-towaway operation means an operation in which an empty or unladen motor vehicle with one or more sets of wheels on the surface of the roadway is being transported:
(1) Between vehicle manufacturer's facilities;
(2) Between a vehicle manufacturer and a dealership or purchaser;
(3) Between a dealership, or other entity selling or leasing the vehicle, and a purchaser or lessee;
(4) To a motor carrier's terminal or repair facility for the repair of disabling damage (as defined in § 390.5) following a crash; or
(5) To a motor carrier's terminal or repair facility for repairs associated with the failure of a vehicle component or system; or
(6) By means of a saddle-mount or tow-bar.

This is a commercial exemption not for routine use by non-commercial RV drivers to avoid supplemental braking on a towed vehicle. Again, the requirements of the tow vehicle in such operations are defined.
In fact here is the prohibition of unlicensed people for doing exactly as you described:
RCW 46.76.010
License required—Exceptions—"Driveaway or towaway methods" defined.
It shall be unlawful for any person, firm, partnership, association, or corporation to engage in the business of delivering by the driveaway or towaway methods vehicles not his or her own and of a type required to be registered under the laws of this state, without procuring a transporter's license in accordance with the provisions of this chapter.
This shall not apply to motor freight carriers or operations regularly licensed under the provisions of chapter 81.80 RCW to haul such vehicles on trailers or semitrailers.
Driveaway or towaway methods means the delivery service rendered by a motor vehicle transporter wherein motor vehicles are driven singly or in combinations by the towbar, saddlemount or fullmount methods or any lawful combinations thereof, or where a truck or truck tractor draws or tows a semitrailer or trailer.

To do what you quote requires a very specific vehicle transportation license which RV owners don't have.

msturtz wrote:
Just a point of fact. A vehicle in tow for legal purposes is in fact a trailer. I can prove why.

Every time this subject comes up, some people always try to dig up some version of the law that they can interpret their own way. They always refuse to contact their own law enforcement agency because they have some tired old excuse that they can't believe them and it will never stand up in court etc, all BS.
In any case, in the State where you live, Washington, here is what the LAW says and the specific Statutes for you to confirm it.

RCW 46.37.340
Braking equipment required.
(3) Brakes on all wheels. Every vehicle shall be equipped with brakes acting on all wheels EXCEPT:
(c) Any vehicle being towed in driveaway or towaway operations, provided the combination of vehicles is capable of complying with the performance requirements of RCW 46.37.351.
RCW 46.37.351 says, C-4
All combinations of
vehicles in driveaway-
towaway must be able to stop in less than 40 feet at 20 MPH.

To review.....a "Vehicle in tow" is NOT a trailer, except in the minds and advertising brochures of the people that sell supplemental braking systems.
I do not advise driving without supplemental brakes BUT if your Brake Buddy, or other system fails, you do not have to abandon your toad on the side of the road. You can legally continue to drive to some place to get it fixed, or wherever else you want to go.
The OP asked a simple question and the answer is he should use the Brake Buddy, but he doesn't legally have to.

rgatijnet1 wrote:

msturtz wrote:
Just a point of fact. A vehicle in tow for legal purposes is in fact a trailer. I can prove why. The state I live in doesn't allow double recreational towing. If as some posters assert that my towed vehicle is not a "trailer" then on trips where I want to bring our boat I should be able to hitch the boat to the vehicle in tow. That way I can bring both the boat and toad. Btw I know I can't I would get pulled over by a LEO in short order. Btw I have a CDL. A trailer is ANYTHING articulated towed behind another vehicle.

Send an email to your State Highway Patrol and get an answer from them about a vehicle in tow behind an RV. Your answer will be the same one that I got. When was the last time you saw a wrecker operator put a supplemental braking system in any vehicle they hooked up to?
Remember that a private RV IS NOT a commercial vehicle.

A wrecker has a specific license and specially equipped vehicle and trained operators to allow them to tow disabled vehicles without supplemental braking. Even they can't legally tow a another trailer behind a toad vehicle. As to asking a local State Highway Patrol officer as to if something is a "trailer" or not is not legally defensible. The reason is they are not attorneys and they have not seen the setup. However, if they see a setup where a vehicle is being towed behind a motorhome they would call it a trailer. In fact, the accident investigators would write a ticket where the weight of the toad exceeded the lower of the motorhome chassis trailer weight for trailer brakes or the state limit for trailers. If you are towing something that something is a trailer regardless of what it is or may be used for when it isn't being towed. I really don't understand the point of not using supplemental brakes on a vehicle in tow. It is just foolish coach manufacturers design their coaches to be able to stop a coach at GVWR not a coach and trailer (or toad) at GCWR. Just to be really clear. A vehicle in tow does NOT meet the legal definition of a motor vehicle in Washington State law:
RCW 47.04.010
(21) "Operator." Every person who drives or is in actual physical control of a vehicle as herein defined;
(19) "Motor vehicle." Every vehicle, as herein defined, which is in itself a self-propelled unit;

Here is Kansas definition of a "trailer":
2014 Kansas Statutes
Chapter 8 AUTOMOBILES AND OTHER VEHICLES
Article 14 UNIFORM ACT REGULATING TRAFFIC; DEFINITIONS
8-1479 "Trailer" defined.
Universal Citation: KS Stat § 8-1479 (2014)
8-1479.?"Trailer" defined. "Trailer" means every vehicle with or without motive power, other than a pole trailer, designed for carrying persons or property and for being drawn by a motor vehicle, and so constructed that no part of its weight rests upon the towing vehicle.
History:?L. 1974, ch. 33, § 8-1479; July 1.

Note: the definition of a motor vehicle it must be powered on its own. When a motor vehicle is being towed it is not "self-propelled" nor does it have an "operator" as defined by the statue. There are very similar statutes in every state.