Overweight Toad?

Effy wrote:

OhhWell wrote:


The answer apparently is that as soon as you pull out of the driveway a couple hundred lbs over the hitch rating, you have instant and massive failure of everything. It doesn't even matter if the poor guy has a re-enforced frame or not.

Right, that's the point all right, you guessed it. :S

I am not sure why we waste our time on those that obviously know more than the engineers that build the hitches. Those numbers are for silly folk who pander to superstition and paranoia. You guys must be pretty smart while the rest of us idiots follow the rules and think about our safety as well as others. Man we must look pretty stupid. Books and instructions are stupid too. And lets not talk about laws. They are made up for other people. Not the Savants we have on here. Thank you for your insight oh father of RV omnipotence.

You are welcome.

Some can upgrade and modify while some cannot. Its not a bad thing to stick to the "Book" if you are one who cannot. It's not a good thing to just blindly hook up 20% over your tow rating either.

As far as the laws go, (not actually being omnipotent) could you find me a law about exceeding the hitch rating? I couldn't find anything besides length, width and axle ratings. I imagine a LEO would have some discretion in stopping what he or she may deem to be an unsafe towing situation but would a car on a dolly 500 lbs over the hitch rating really fall into that category? Maybe but from what I see out there on the interstates all the darn time, pretty much anything goes.

OhhWell wrote:


The answer apparently is that as soon as you pull out of the driveway a couple hundred lbs over the hitch rating, you have instant and massive failure of everything. It doesn't even matter if the poor guy has a re-enforced frame or not.

Right, that's the point all right, you guessed it. :S

I am not sure why we waste our time on those that obviously know more than the engineers that build the hitches. Those numbers are for silly folk who pander to superstition and paranoia. You guys must be pretty smart while the rest of us idiots follow the rules and think about our safety as well as others. Man we must look pretty stupid. Books and instructions are stupid too. And lets not talk about laws. They are made up for other people. Not the Savants we have on here. Thank you for your insight oh father of RV omnipotence.

Daveinet wrote:

Effy wrote:
Really? Now we have to cite documented cases where an overweight toad contributed to an accident to justify why you shouldn't do it after knowingly being over the parameters? and BTW - I am sure there are countless accidents caused by inability to avoid or stop in time due to an overweight tow vehicle. I am sure there are hitch failures. Why would you knowingly do it? It makes little sense. I don't get it, I try and do thing sthe right way not look for "wiggle room". If something happens, you are negligable and at fault. Plain and simple. I don't like to take long trips with my fingers crossed. I'd rather know I am doing things the right way and staying with the parameters for which they are designed - and rated. The numbers are not made up, nor are they arbiitrary. OP - do what you want. I am not sure why you even posed the question. You know you are over and ask if it's ok anyway. It's not. Mistakes are one thing, knowingly doing the wrong things and putting others at risk for your convenience is really dumb and inconsiderate.

Yes, Really. So you answer this question, which puts more stress on the frame, towing at 3500 lbs for 200,000 miles, or towing at 4200 lbs for 1500 miles?

The answer apparently is that as soon as you pull out of the driveway a couple hundred lbs over the hitch rating, you have instant and massive failure of everything. It doesn't even matter if the poor guy has a re-enforced frame or not.

Effy wrote:
Really? Now we have to cite documented cases where an overweight toad contributed to an accident to justify why you shouldn't do it after knowingly being over the parameters? and BTW - I am sure there are countless accidents caused by inability to avoid or stop in time due to an overweight tow vehicle. I am sure there are hitch failures. Why would you knowingly do it? It makes little sense. I don't get it, I try and do thing sthe right way not look for "wiggle room". If something happens, you are negligable and at fault. Plain and simple. I don't like to take long trips with my fingers crossed. I'd rather know I am doing things the right way and staying with the parameters for which they are designed - and rated. The numbers are not made up, nor are they arbiitrary. OP - do what you want. I am not sure why you even posed the question. You know you are over and ask if it's ok anyway. It's not. Mistakes are one thing, knowingly doing the wrong things and putting others at risk for your convenience is really dumb and inconsiderate.

Yes, Really. So you answer this question, which puts more stress on the frame, towing at 3500 lbs for 200,000 miles, or towing at 4200 lbs for 1500 miles?

mowermech wrote:

The bottom line is, it is YOUR rig, do it YOUR way, being as safe as you can, and Good Luck.

IF you are the only person on the road. Unfortunately people who enter into breaking the rules also do it at the risk of others. Taking your own life and property into your hands is one thing. Risking the property and lives of others knowingly doing something wrong is an entirely different matter. An accident may never happen, that's true, but why risk it? If you don't have the means to do something the right way, get the means or don't do it. Do it right or go home. I have my fill of people halfa$$ing stuff because they are too lazy or inconsiderate to do it right.

As always, I can only relate personal experience with "the numbers".
the truck:
1994 dodge Ram CTD 3500 dually. the GCWR of the truck, according to the Owners Manual: 18,000 lbs.
the Trailer:
1999 Monaco McKenzie 32 foot triple slide fifth wheel.
Full time living.
the scale weights:
UNDER GAWR, all axles.
UNDER GVWR, truck and trailer.
OVER truck GCWR by 3,180 lbs.
It crossed the Continental Divide several times, crossed the Sierras a couple of times, and the Cascades a cou0ple of times.
Nothing bent, nothing broke, there were no accidents, nobody was injured or died.

The Motorhome:
1995 Tioga 29 ft. on an E350 chassis, 460 V8, 3500 lb. hitch
The toad:
2006 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon Unlimited, mildly modified, weight unknown, on a fixed arm adjustable width 5000 lb. capacity tow bar.
A well-qualified local welder reinforced the hitch.
The Jeep was towed "over the mountains and through the woods" several times.
Again, nothing bent, nothing broke, etc.

If you look at nearly anything, you will find at least two "ratings"; the working rating, and the failure rating.
Chain, cable, steel bars, bolts, plumbing, hydraulic hoses, etc. ALL have both a working load and a failure load. When it comes to vehicles, the manufacturer will never give out the failure load of any part. That lack is probably quite justifiable! The fact remains, the stated working rating is carefully determined to be that load at which the chances of failure are statistically insignificant, in order to minimize the liability of the manufacturer. the actual failure load can be 50 to 100% higher than the stated working load. The user will never know, unless he breaks it.
So, do I recommend that the working loads should be regularly exceeded? No, of course not.
Do I think that paranoia exists when it comes to ratings? Yes, based on a lifetime of experiences hauling and towing, I think it does. The continuing threats of legal action are quite humorous, however, considering the likelihood of ever seeing the threatener, and the even smaller likelihood of being in an accident with the threatener.
The bottom line is, it is YOUR rig, do it YOUR way, being as safe as you can, and Good Luck.

Meh... Tow dolly puts very little weight on the tongue. The motorhome weighs substantially more than the vehicle and dolly. The dolly has brakes and reportedly, the frame is re-enforced.

Will it put you over GCVWR much?

I am contemplating going about 2-300 lbs over the 3500 lbs rating on my receiver as well. I know in my case, the limiting factors are the weak frame extensions and the hitch itself.

If your tire blows out on the dolly, is being a few hundred pounds over the hitch rating really going to be the determining factor in a disaster?

Daveinet wrote:
Has there ever been a documented case where an over weight toad has caused an accident or even record of a damaged frame?

BTY: It would be good to see if one could find out what the limiting factor is in the tow rating. Often times the limitation is tongue weight do to the fact that excessive tongue weight will lift the front end, which dramatically changes the front end alignment, creating unsafe handling. When I first put my motorcycle on the back of my coach, I had some additional things that contributed to the extra weight on the rear. Even though everything was within spec weight wise, it was a handful to drive. I found a way to remove 75 lbs from the rear, and put it on the front. Just that 75 lbs made a world of difference. If the limiting factor is tongue weight, a tow dolly has very little.

Really? Now we have to cite documented cases where an overweight toad contributed to an accident to justify why you shouldn't do it after knowingly being over the parameters? and BTW - I am sure there are countless accidents caused by inability to avoid or stop in time due to an overweight tow vehicle. I am sure there are hitch failures. Why would you knowingly do it? It makes little sense. I don't get it, I try and do thing sthe right way not look for "wiggle room". If something happens, you are negligable and at fault. Plain and simple. I don't like to take long trips with my fingers crossed. I'd rather know I am doing things the right way and staying with the parameters for which they are designed - and rated. The numbers are not made up, nor are they arbiitrary. OP - do what you want. I am not sure why you even posed the question. You know you are over and ask if it's ok anyway. It's not. Mistakes are one thing, knowingly doing the wrong things and putting others at risk for your convenience is really dumb and inconsiderate.

Has there ever been a documented case where an over weight toad has caused an accident or even record of a damaged frame?

BTY: It would be good to see if one could find out what the limiting factor is in the tow rating. Often times the limitation is tongue weight do to the fact that excessive tongue weight will lift the front end, which dramatically changes the front end alignment, creating unsafe handling. When I first put my motorcycle on the back of my coach, I had some additional things that contributed to the extra weight on the rear. Even though everything was within spec weight wise, it was a handful to drive. I found a way to remove 75 lbs from the rear, and put it on the front. Just that 75 lbs made a world of difference. If the limiting factor is tongue weight, a tow dolly has very little.

Dennis,

Based on what he's posted - he's not listening. But nothing like a LEO to be direct...