Forum Discussion

Explorer

Apr 30, 2016

Small C or longer B+?

Hi All,

Its yet another RV newbie asking a "what should I buy?" type question! I've searched some threads and FAQs already, but if my answer lies in an existing thread please feel free to just point me there. :-P

I'm looking at buying a small Class C - initially I was considering something like a Leprechaun 19CB / Freelander 190CB; but after viewing some models on a lot my wife and I have decided that something with a dinette would be better; with the Minnie Winnie 22R really catching our eye.

After buying a couple of RV books and emailing their (tremendously helpful) authors, I find a couple of them are really recommending "B+" rigs that are a few feet longer than I was targeting (26-28' instead of 24'). For example, a Phoenix Cruiser 2350 or a Winnebago Aspect / Cambria 26.

With my budget (~$30k - $45k), I can get a 2014+ Class C like the Minnie 22R; OR I can get a 2006 - 2008 "B+" like the ones mentioned above. Are the advantages of the B+ (typically better construction, easier to drive in winds, etc) really worth the downsides (have to buy a few-years-older model, less storage space, slightly smaller interior)?

The longer B+ models have a bigger wheelbase (26+ feet with 182" wheelbase instead of 24 feet with a 158" wheelbase). Isn't that going to require a bigger turning radius? It seems to me that 24 feet is some kind of "break point" and anything longer than that is going to require extra parking/maneuvering considerations. If maneuverability is important to me, am I right to be conscientious about these extra 2-3 feet and the wheelbase increase?

As first-time buyers my wife and I find a 2014+ model appealing because there's still warranty time left (on the drive-train, at least). Are we being overly sensitive to this issue? And given their compact dimensions are B+ models at more risk of having problems with systems/appliance issues - since they might require more-complex wiring & plumbing?

Thanks a bunch for any tips, info, and advice!

--Noel & Wendy

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OPTIONAL BACKSTORY [just here in case you're curious to know more about my situation & intended RV'ing]
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My wife and I are fortunate to be doing well in our careers, and we're seriously considering an RV for 4 uses:
1) My main passion is flying gliders/sailplanes, and I spend many weekends each summer at an airport about 3 hours' drive from home. The club I belong to has a clubhouse with a kitchen and a couple of showers and 10 bunkbeds in the basement; but there's a lot of snoring and not much privacy... I am OK with it; but there's no way my wife is staying down there! ;-) The club has some water & power hookups for RVs next to the clubhouse (no sewer dump/hookups), and I could park the RV there for about 5 months each summer. Having an RV would provide some privacy, a place to store tools & gear in case the glider needs minor work, and a way for the wife and occasionally a parent to come hang at the airport on weekends without paying for hotels or dealing with the bunk-beds. Furthermore, we hold a big weeklong event each summer and space, water, and bathrooms are at a premium during this time. The RV would be a big improvement during that week!

2) My passion for soaring takes me to big National events about 2 years out of every 3. These are all over the western USA (usually in small towns near the desert or similarly isolated areas). And they last about 2 weeks long. Having an RV would eliminate the need to buy a hotel room in a small town during a time when lots of other pilots are looking to do the same thing. It seems like it would be easier to just "camp" at the airport for those 2 weeks, making 1 or 2 runs to a nearby spot for sundries and to fill/dump tanks as necessary.
BUT THERE'S A BIG CATCH: when flying gliders we sometimes don't make it back to our starting airport (especially in contests where we are pushing hard to fly hundreds of miles in a day). So a couple of times a year someone is going to need to come get me and my glider from a remote location. That means having an RV that I can easily pack up each day, and it means that one of my friends (who may not be familiar with it) may need to drive it down the road - with trailer in-tow - to come get me. They have to be able to negotiate rural routes and sometimes make U-turns, as part of that. Glider trailers are low to the ground and lightweight (only about 2000 lbs when fully loaded), but they're 26-28' long and have only moderately-effective surge brakes.

3) My wife grew up in the mid-west and hasn't seen any of the National Parks or other outdoor destinations in the western USA. She likes travel and the outdoors; but doesn't like toilets that don't flush. ;-) A compact RV seems like a good way to take an annual road-trip (especially on years when I don't go to a big glider contest) and spend 1-2 weeks at a National Park. Again, the idea would be to have a modest rig that can negotiate almost any paved road in a National Park, and be able stop at pullouts and trailheads to enjoy the nature (not just be stuck in big lots or RV parks, or sit at the camground with no way of getting out and about each day in the park).

4) This won't happen often; but once or twice a year we have family staying with us for the Holidays, and/or we have friends visit from Vancouver or other places that are a 2-4 hour drive away. The guest room in our house is fine, but we could park an RV next to our garage and give folks an extra place to stay, with a little bit of extra privacy.

I believe that the use-cases above define our needs as:

We need towing capability - but we don't need to pull a huge amount of weight (its more about length & braking capabilities).
We need the ability to dry-camp/boondock (although usually within a few miles of a town) for ~5 days at a time.
The coach needs to be capable of remaining a reasonable temperature inside, on sunny/dry ~90 degree summer days.
We need something that's easy to drive and has good maneuverability.
We need something that requires minimal setup/teardown - both in the case of retrieving a glider as well as if we want to tour around inside a National Park and be mobile each day that we're there.
We need something reliable and low-maintenance (we've been especially keen to get a coach that still has some time left on the warranty - at least on the drivetrain).
We only need to accommodate my wife and myself; but we need to be able to carry normal travel supplies plus a couple of toolboxes for glider supplies.
We need enough table-space for 2 laptops, and/or some soldering gear (for emergency-repairs on glider electronics).
It would be great if there was enough seating to have one or two more people hang in the RV with us - for an hour or two - as its common at glider events to share a beer or a glass of wine with friends during the evening. :-) I don't want to waste space on a couch, but a dinette would be great. Especially as my wife and I will need a flat surface for working on a couple of laptops.

All of the factors above have led me to research recent-model (2012 and newer) Class C's around 21-24' length (overall length; not manufacturer sizes). My wife and I have spent some time on dealer lots looking at Coachmen/Leprechaun 19's and at Minnie Winnie 22R's. The 19 was OK from the standpoint of cooking and sleeping; but the additional kitchen space and seating space of the 22R was a big improvement IMHO (although the dealer wanted $15k more for the 22R, and I don't agree that its worth _that_ much more). In doing online research, here are some other models that have caught my eye: Freelander 21QB/RS (also the Leprechaun 210QB/210RS), Tioga Montera or Jamboree Searcher 23B, Gulf Stream Conquest 6237, Forest River Forrester/Sunseeker 2250/2251 SLE. [The slide-out models are appealing for the extra interior space; but I *am* concerned about the loss of exterior/"basement" storage - which really appeals to me for glider tools, a barbeque, maybe a small/folding bike, etc]

Phew, if you've made it this far THANK YOU for reading, and for any further information you are willing to pass along! It is sincerely appreciated!!

Class C

Bordercollie
Explorer
May 04, 2016
I recommend a 26-27 foot Class C with an extra house battery for 5-day dry camping. Most rigs are OK for three days with judicious use of power. The furnace blowers use a lot of power. Most RV's are not well insulated from ambient cold and heat although there are way to make things better. You'd be surprised how nimble a 27 footer can be, in tight conditions, just needs a little skill and patience. Driving a stock Class C across rough fields may not be good for the vehicle and contents. Slides are nice but can have electro-mechanical problems. Solar arrays and extra batteries are popular setups for extended stays off grid. Our 2004 Tioga 26 Q has a very large cargo bay in the rear with interior lights and access on three sides. The rear bedroom is a must but it only has access on the right and foot of RV queen bed. We use a large dual sleeping bag and don't need to make the bed. No RV is perfect for all buyers and their usage.
nwade
Explorer
May 04, 2016
All -

Just wanted to thank everyone again for the tips and advice; its appreciated! Due to some job uncertainty my wife and I have decided that we need to hold off making a purchase for now. We'll look again towards the end of the year and attempt to score a good deal then - assuming the job situation is stable at that time (...never know in this economy). Don't be surprised to see me on here again in 6-8 months! :-)

Thanks again,

--Noel
F1bNorm
Explorer
May 03, 2016
I see your point. When the A/C is on it does minimize the gen noise. My primary use of the gen is to run the microwave and to recharge the house batts. We mostly boondock and often it is dead quiet. We use the coach as an HQ for outdoor events and was hoping to use the onboard gen as a PA power source, but having the registration table under the awning next to the gen was very annoying. So much so that I bought a small Honda gen just to power the PA and the Honda goes on the farside with a long extension cord!

Sorry this went off topic, but then it is something to consider when buying a MH.

Norm

pnichols wrote:
F1bNorm wrote:
Pnichols-

Just curious.

You said " Quiet and vibration free built-in generator for considerate and convenient extended air conditioning usage when drycamping in warm weather"

Our Winn Aspect came with an Onan Microquiet 4000 gen and it is pretty far from quiet and vibration free. Is yours the same? Ours does the job, but it's real annoying for a long period of time. Also, it's not so bad when I take my hearing aids out

Winnebago seems to have handled the installation of our Class C's Onan 4000 watt gas generator quite well.

The generator is mounted well up off the ground inside it's exterior cabinet, with none of the bottom of the generator visible from the outside so that no noise can directly reach an outsider's ears from the Onan's green outer case. The bulk of the outside noise is the swishing sound of the cooling air, which primarily is heard as reflected sound off the ground under the open bottom of the generator cabinet. When we're parked on soft ground, this generator air cooling sound is even more muffled.

Inside, the generator mounting area falls underneath the thickly carpeted flooring where our feet rest in the dinnette. The dinnette table top further kindof isolates/contains any humming noise making it through the heavy carpeting. There is very, very little floor vibration felt elsewhere through the coach's hard surface and carpeted flooring areas.

We can easily nap or read or watch TV in our Class C with the generator running powering the air conditioner... we are barely aware of the generator's low humming sound over the sound of the air conditioner's fan when the fan is on it's low setting. With the A/C's fan on it's high setting we are hardly aware of any Onan generator sound at all.

When the generator is running we're of course aware of it a bit if we want to be, but it's not irritating enough for us to want to give up the comfort of warm weather air conditioning. We have even run the generator and air conditioner nearly through the night so we could sleep while drycamping in summer in the extreme heat and humidity of the U.S Deep South.

I feel that the noise and vibration of a built-in generator should be reason to accept or reject purchase of an RV regardless of it's other merits. Tolerable RV heating is important and so is tolerable RV air conditioing. The weather is changing, and an RV should be ready to comfortably deal with it going forward ... especially in light of what one pays for RVs.
michmom22
Explorer
May 03, 2016
Noel - I have loosely followed this thread. Just a couple of comments since you are considering the Minnie Winnie. We had a 24 foot Minnie Winnie (1998) that we purchased used in 2004 and just traded in with over 100,000 miles after our last long trip in the fall. We definitely got our money's worth and were very pleased with the Minnie. We did have some leak problems but my husband attributed that to lack of maintenance and a bad antenna installation (all caused by the first owner). He thinks if we had owned it from the beginning, it would have been a different story.

We seriously considered the 22r with the front cap upgrade when we purchased last month - we ended up buying a Winnebago Fuse which we love but otherwise would have gotten the 22r. Fiberglass roof was a must for us and we really liked the 22r floorplan. We are big Winnebago fans after our first good experience. No RV manufacturer is perfect and there are always going to be some quality control issues - we just believe Winnebago does well in this respect. We loved the fact that at 24 feet, we felt we could go almost everywhere in our last RV and park in most regular parking spaces, so we were determined not to go any larger (the Fuse is 24 feet also). Ultimately, we chose the Fuse (although more expensive than the Minnie Winnie) as it is narrower and even easier to get around which is most significant to us (The Fuse also has more bells and whistles which is just a nice plus). The Fuse does not have the towing capacity of the Minnie Winnie but we did not need it as my husband has a carrier with a powered paraglider. I understand you need the towing capacity. It sounds like being able to get around easily is really important to you as well. You also mention storage - we have less storage in the Fuse than we did in the Minnie Winnie but when we took everything out and looked at what we really needed, we realized we were carrying a lot of **** that we did not need - you might find you really do not need as much storage space as you initially think - you would be amazed at how much collapsible, foldable, etc stuff they make for boats and RVs that actually works!

Before we bought our first RV, we rented one for a week. It is not cheap to rent, but we did learn a lot about what we liked and did not like - I wonder whether this might be a good option for you. Just a thought.

Hope some of this helps. Good luck on your decision.

Lynn
Winnebago Fuse 23a
Michigan
samven1
Explorer
May 03, 2016
While I agree that some B+ have fewer places for leaks you still have to inspect and recaulk all the through roof items like vents, AC, stand pipes and if you have a slide that will need attention as well.
I have a 24' class C with a 158" WB I also have a Dodge 1500 Quad Cab pickup with a 160" WB. The RV is 2.5 ft longer overall than the pickup but I can and have turned the RV around on a residential street with a standard 3 point turn with no more time or trouble than the pickup but you absolutely must have a backup camera on the RV, the mirrors wont cut it.
I always like to travel with my telescope and mount and fishing equipment, I dont think I could have made the longer trips without the cab over bunk. If you have delicate or bulky items that are not real heavy the bunk is a life saver. I stash the telescope and electronics as well as fly rods and tieing equipment and the heavy coats up there. They would fit in the storage compartment but I worry about them bouncing around and dont want things piled on top of them.
pnichols
Explorer II
May 03, 2016
F1bNorm wrote:
Pnichols-

Just curious.

You said " Quiet and vibration free built-in generator for considerate and convenient extended air conditioning usage when drycamping in warm weather"

Our Winn Aspect came with an Onan Microquiet 4000 gen and it is pretty far from quiet and vibration free. Is yours the same? Ours does the job, but it's real annoying for a long period of time. Also, it's not so bad when I take my hearing aids out

Winnebago seems to have handled the installation of our Class C's Onan 4000 watt gas generator quite well.

The generator is mounted well up off the ground inside it's exterior cabinet, with none of the bottom of the generator visible from the outside so that no noise can directly reach an outsider's ears from the Onan's green outer case. The bulk of the outside noise is the swishing sound of the cooling air, which primarily is heard as reflected sound off the ground under the open bottom of the generator cabinet. When we're parked on soft ground, this generator air cooling sound is even more muffled.

Inside, the generator mounting area falls underneath the thickly carpeted flooring where our feet rest in the dinnette. The dinnette table top further kindof isolates/contains any humming noise making it through the heavy carpeting. There is very, very little floor vibration felt elsewhere through the coach's hard surface and carpeted flooring areas.

We can easily nap or read or watch TV in our Class C with the generator running powering the air conditioner... we are barely aware of the generator's low humming sound over the sound of the air conditioner's fan when the fan is on it's low setting. With the A/C's fan on it's high setting we are hardly aware of any Onan generator sound at all.

When the generator is running we're of course aware of it a bit if we want to be, but it's not irritating enough for us to want to give up the comfort of warm weather air conditioning. We have even run the generator and air conditioner nearly through the night so we could sleep while drycamping in summer in the extreme heat and humidity of the U.S Deep South.

I feel that the noise and vibration of a built-in generator should be reason to accept or reject purchase of an RV regardless of it's other merits. Tolerable RV heating is important and so is tolerable RV air conditioing. The weather is changing, and an RV should be ready to comfortably deal with it going forward ... especially in light of what one pays for RVs.
F1bNorm
Explorer
May 02, 2016
nwade-
Just a thought.

If the MH is following a sailplane, would a cabover block the view? BTW, what kind of glider are you flying? My last ride, years ago, was in a Blanik.

Norm
F1bNorm
Explorer
May 02, 2016
Pnichols-

Just curious.

You said " Quiet and vibration free built-in generator for considerate and convenient extended air conditioning usage when drycamping in warm weather"

Our Winn Aspect came with an Onan Microquiet 4000 gen and it is pretty far from quiet and vibration free. Is yours the same? Ours does the job, but it's real annoying for a long period of time. Also, it's not so bad when I take my hearing aids out:)

Norm
pnichols
Explorer II
May 02, 2016
Noel (the OP),

Some characteristics of our particular Class C might be a good reference starting point for you. We kindof lucked out in finding it new at a dealer years ago, but it took us about a year to find this combination when searching aross the U.S.. You might be able to find something similar in a more modern model if you search far and wide:

- 24 feet length ... so we can get around well without towing a transportation vehicle
- 101 wide ... so no slideout is needed to be comfortable even when we have to spend time inside during cold weather, hot weather, wet weather, etc.
- Based on a 4X series chassis (Ford E450) instead of a 3X series chassis so we can tow as much as we want and carry as much as we want w/o being overloaded
- One piece fiberglass roof for low maintenance and better long term protection from leaks
- Good overall ground clearance for no scrapping when entering/exiting malls and parking lots
- Large fuel tank (55 gallons) for great cruising range
- Decent size propane tank (18 gallons) for extended furnace usage during cold snaps and for good general drycamping duration
- Decent size grey tank (29 gallons) for good drycamping duration
- Decent size black tank (39 gallons) for good drycamping duration
- Grey water can be off-loaded into the black water tank to extend drycamping duration by not being grey water capacity limited
- Decent size fresh water capacity (39 gallons plus 6 gallons in HW tank) for good drycamping duration
- Quiet and vibration free built-in generator for considerate and convenient extended air conditioning usage when drycamping in warm weather
- A wheel base of 158 inches so we can do such things as make a U-Turn on most residential streets
- Two queen size beds ... one is permanently available for quick naps/rests
- Outside hot/cold shower for washing pets, washing dirty shoes/boots, washing tools, etc.
- Built-in battery storage compartment that can hold up to about 250 amp hours of battery capacity
- Electrically heated cab mirrors for frosty weather
- Electrically movable cab mirrors for inspecting the rear roof edge and lower coach edge areas while driving down the road
- Built-in weather band radio
- Built-in walkie talkie charging rack with four walkie talkies
- All metal drawer slides for long term reliability
- Gravity locks on all drawers to eliminate surprises on bumpy roads and for long term reliability
- Built-in water filter for the galley sink
- Distributed heating and air conditioning ducts
- Remotely switched floor night light for using the toilet in the middle of the night
- Several 120 volt AC outlets
- Several 12 volt DC outlets
- Seven steel and carpet lined exterior storage cabinets ... with two of them being long for storing shovels, fishing poles, beach umbrellas, etc.
- All under-coach plumbing is up high enclosed in a steel cabinet ... there is nothing hanging down low to catch on things on-road or off-road
- The generator and propane tank are mounted up high out of the way about at the height of the Ford frame for worry-free travel on-road or off-road
- The exterior step is electrically operated and retracts way up high matching the lower edge of the coach wall for worry-free travel on-road or off-road
- The rear tire wheel wells are steel lined to protect the coach from damage in case of a tire blowout
- The area underneath both dinette seats is entirely available for storage ... no furnace or hot water heater in there taking up space
- The driver's seat can be tilted back as much as needed for driver comfort

Please consider all of the above just as a guide.
Rolin
Explorer
May 02, 2016
Hi nwade,
We now have an Aspect 26a. We changed from a Jayco 23ft class c. The reasons were:
1. keeping the front cap sealed on the Jayco was a constant challenge
2. The rubber TPO roof was nearing is end of life 12 yrs
3. The Aspect has a fiberglass roof and have no leak problems
4. The Aspect has a full time bed (corner...but we use one of those bags with sheets)
5. over 6" narrower and not as tall, make driving through town and street parking much easier...just have to pay two meters ;-)
6. We are travelers more than campers so we don't use a toad and so far it has worked well for us. We do occasionally take a maxi scooter on a trailer.
7. Quality..dual pain windows and solid construction.
8. Drivability...no 3rd party add-ons required. Tracks well.

It all depends on your travel/camping needs, this one works well for us.