Some musings on future power trains

If you have a Cummins diesel, there is no reason on God's Green Earth to long for a different engine.

For $1900 more than the ICE engine the power boost F-150 makes a lot of sense to me, not so much when towing up hills but for the rest of the time when you are not towing which is most of the time. I think an optional battery pack that fits in the bed of the pickup that would make it a plug-in hybrid to use when electric is free or lower cost than gas regeneration would make it even better. For a couples TT that weighs 4000 lbs or less I think it would be ideal. If you need to tow more, the heavy battery pack can be removed to increase the capacity. Each year the payload and towing capacity seems to increase anyway through weight reduction and chassis improvements.

Groover wrote:
You have missed many of the advantages that I have listed. The main idea is to simplify the coach and thus reduce cost, reduce weight and increase storage area. Any fuel economy improvement would be icing on the cake. If you go back to my original post you will see I suggested increasing battery capacity to at least 10kwhr, more would be better.

Yes, your V10 is quiet, mine was too. But the coach that I used for reference is diesel powered. Even the QuietDiesel generator by Onan is not nearly as quiet as the V10 or most any other gas engine used to push a vehicle. Most gas gensets are pretty loud too.

And I have tried to make it clear that I need a camper that works without charge ports nearby. With a hybrid built for a motorhome and a larger battery pack you could probably run the generator a lots often but when you do run it put away a lot more Kw for later use. Yes, you would increase wear on the one engine but I have heard very little about people wearing out either engine in their motorhomes. The people that are worried about it are free to stay with the two engine approach.

If nobody actually pulls with a half ton truck Ford sure has wasted a lot of money stepping up their towing game for 2021. The 2021 F150 Ecoboost can be equipped to tow as much as a gas F250, even the one with a Godzilla engine.

But you won't be simplifying or reducing weight if you make a viable plug-in-hybrid. Any savings in motor size will be eaten up by a big battery bank. For example, Tesla's battery bank weighs in at around 1200lb.

A 10kwh battery bank is going to do squat on a 20 mile mountain climb. Maybe add 30-40hp for a 1/2hr, when you need to generate something on the order of 150-200hp to take the load off an undersized diesel and to keep a big MH up to speed. An 80kwh tesla battery bank, will be somewhat more helpful as you could pull 160kw (200hp) for a 1/2 hr. That might be enough to help a downsized 300hp diesel up a mountain. It also would need some heavy duty engineering. Teslas are known to go into limp mode when driven hard for extended periods as parts overheat. It can be done but it's not cheap or simple.

Again, if you want an off grid RV, add a big lithium bank (say 10kwh) and coat the roof with solar panels ( you can probably get around 3000w of solar panels generating about 12kwh per day). It will be cheaper and simper and in most conditions that will allow you to run whatever you want...largely indefinetly. It makes no sense to add the complexity and cost of a hybrid, just to have battery power for house loads.

Sure people tow with 1/2 ton truck but it's typically few miles and lower weight trailers. Tow ratings in 1/2 ton trucks is mostly marketing. There are rare exceptions, but when you get over 8-10k lbs and towing a lot of miles, most people bump up to at least a 3/4 ton because it does so much better. Of course, you can push a 1/2 ton to the limits once in a while and get away with it and some people do but it's so rare Ford can blow it off as being abused when their trucks fail prematurely.

valhalla360 wrote:

Groover wrote:
OP here, I feel the need to make a few comments.
I used the 3.5 PowerBoost engine for an example simply because it is the only hybrid engine I am aware of that is available right now and I never said to use it in its current form or output levels. I just used for illustration of what could be.

That said, as far as I can tell everyone throwing shade at it has no first hand experience with it. I own two. The first is a 2013 model I gave to my daughter for driving to college and towing her horse trailer around. I picked the truck because it had been on the lot long enough to get some serious discounts. I don't even know what type of trailer tow package it has but she used it to pull her 3 horse trailer for several years then moved up to a gooseneck with living quarters. The only trouble we have had from the truck is with the brakes and it is over 130,000 miles now. The second EcoBoost is a 2016 model that is equipped with max towing package and has been pressed into service towing an equipment trailer giving me a GCWR around 18,000lbs. No trouble after nearly 5 years and 21,000 miles of pulling the trailer in addition to grocery getting. My experience trumps the opinions of speculators in my book.

I want a package that can be used with current technology boondocking or even in Glacier NP that has no power run to the campsites and very limited generator hours. The package I suggested would do that. The Ecoboost is so quiet that you could probably get away with running it all the time, especially if the exhaust was run up to the roof.

Heavy vehicles have the potential to get more benefit from a hybrid drive system than light ones since the benefit is derived from saving energy that would otherwise be put into the brakes and that is a function of the pull of gravity plus momentum(both mass related) minus the air drag. The mpg may not increase as many miles per gallon but the number of gallons saved would be much more in a motorhome than in a Prius.

A good hybrid system could take a lot of the peak loads off of whatever motor is used.

The PowerBoost 3.5 is rated for 530lb-ft of torque, 90% as much as my Cummins. That is a peak output but it could probably be increased with a little effort and a few thousand dollars.

I am looking for a package that doesn't run the price through the ceiling. I think that I what suggested might even enable a price reduction.

First, the 3.5 EcoBoost has turned out to be a good engine but they aren't putting it in the 3/4 and 1 ton trucks for a reason. We have no experience with the 3.5 PowerBoost as it's just coming out for 2021, so no one other than the Ford Engineers has any idea how it will hold up. The 3.5 EcoBoost has a decent reputation but 130,000 miles towing a 5-6k horse trailer isn't a long term durability test. Probably more important, what percentage of miles were towing? 21,000 miles is pretty much still brand new, so doesn't tell us much either. But again, it's a different drivetrain from the PowerBoost.

Now to the actual issue you brought up.
- If you just want to run house loads without running the generator, you can install a 5-10kwh lithium battery bank and do that now without getting an exotic drivetrain. By itself, it's certainly not justification to develop a hybrid drivetrain.
- Running a big motor as a generator all the time defeats the purpose. Also, most modern vehicle engines are pretty quiet. I have a 2008 V10 and it's hard to hear when idling from 20ft away...they still aren't going to be happy if they catch you running it, if for no other reason than to hold the moral high ground when they cite people running noisy generators.
- If you are driving to work in stop & go traffic with your MH, true, there is a potential to save a lot more fuel relative to a Prius. Problem is most miles in RVs are in rural areas under light traffic conditions. Most people avoid driving in rush hour when they do pass thru a city. At steady speeds, hybrids really don't provide a benefit over an appropriately sized ICE and unlike pickups that can have CGVW that range by a factor of 3...your average MH CGVW changes very little typically, so the engine can be better dialed in to the rig.
- It wouldn't really take much load off the motor in most conditions. Once up to speed on the freeway, the load is roughly the same and the batteries aren't designed to provide constant power for hours, so it's the ICE doing all the work.
- Diesels are more heavily built to handle the much higher compression ratios compared to gas engines. A side benefit is you can run them at a higher percentage of peak output without wearing them out quickly. So it's not the peak HP/Torque but the allowable continuous rating that matters, I think you will find the 3.5 continuous rating is drastically less than the cummins.

The PowerBoost only has a 1.5kwh battery bank feeding a 35kw electric boost motor. That means it can provide max boost for 2.5 minutes, so climbing a long grade, it's not going to do much of anything. It's really only useful for accelerating in stop and go traffic. For towing and climbing steep grades, the base 3.5l turbo charged gas engine is going to be doing pretty much all the work.

Why did Ford go this route? Because most people don't tow with 1/2 ton trucks for most miles. They run around empty and use it as a commuter vehicle where the hybrid aspect can provide significant benefits all while giving a very peppy performance boost running empty. It will probably do OK towing but when towing, the efficiency will go out the window (as shown by people complaining about mpg towing with the EcoBoost).

A standard Hybrid really won't provide a benefit to your average MH usage profile. A Plug-In-Hybrid could provide some but it wouldn't nearly as good as for a commuter vehicle and at what cost?

If you look at the commercial world, you see divergent approaches that are dialed in to the usage patterns:
- City buses have had great success with hybrid systems. A city bus typically peaks at around 45mph but usually is ranging between 0-35mph with stops every 1/4-1/2 mile. A city bus is pretty much constantly accelerating or decelerating. This is perfect for a hybrid.
- Long distance trucks, they are almost all looking at pure battery power because there is pretty much nothing to gain running at steady speeds using a hybrid.
- Short range delivery vans (like UPS trucks), they are looking at battery only but this is driven by the relatively short range they need. 200mile range can service most delivery routes and then it's easy to park at a designated lot that can be outfitted with slow charge ports as the trucks typically sit 10hr or more overnight. Where city bus service has limited hours, pure battery can work as the range may be acceptable and as with delivery trucks, there is a storage yard that can be outfitted with charging ports to charge over night.

Probably the closest comparison for a MH would be long distance trucks...and they aren't going hybrid.

You have missed many of the advantages that I have listed. The main idea is to simplify the coach and thus reduce cost, reduce weight and increase storage area. Any fuel economy improvement would be icing on the cake. If you go back to my original post you will see I suggested increasing battery capacity to at least 10kwhr, more would be better.

Yes, your V10 is quiet, mine was too. But the coach that I used for reference is diesel powered. Even the QuietDiesel generator by Onan is not nearly as quiet as the V10 or most any other gas engine used to push a vehicle. Most gas gensets are pretty loud too.

And I have tried to make it clear that I need a camper that works without charge ports nearby. With a hybrid built for a motorhome and a larger battery pack you could probably run the generator a lots often but when you do run it put away a lot more Kw for later use. Yes, you would increase wear on the one engine but I have heard very little about people wearing out either engine in their motorhomes. The people that are worried about it are free to stay with the two engine approach.

If nobody actually pulls with a half ton truck Ford sure has wasted a lot of money stepping up their towing game for 2021. The 2021 F150 Ecoboost can be equipped to tow as much as a gas F250, even the one with a Godzilla engine.

JRscooby wrote:

Reisender wrote:

JRscooby wrote:
I have been thinking a little different. From what I have seen the modern EV would handle all the duties of a toad. And spinning a electric motor with no power to it does no damage, as long as it stays in normal speed range. So no transmission issues, just release parking brake, and control brake system from MH.
Part of that control could be make the regen braking come on with or before jake. Think would be a cheap (I'm using 'cheap' as relates to energy, not always money) way to charge, using energy that would need to be dissipated. Yes, once battery is full charge you loose that whoa.
But we can make things more complicated. Existing tech allows car to slow itself if too close to another vehicle. Could a target be but on MH, so the drivetrain can be turned on, so when accelerating or going up hill the toad pulls itself, or even push the MH? This would mean the engine of MH would need less peak power.

Kind of a cool concept, although I think the battery would fill pretty quick. Just to give some real numbers, our Tesla sees regen rates of 80 KW.

I think within a few years there will be Motorhome manufacturers building motorhomes on complete Electric heavy chassis from companies like Freightliner and Tesla. The performance and simplicity will be stunning. Like I said, batten down the pots and pans. Zero to 60 in 8-10 seconds in a 32 foot Motorhome. Woohoo. :).

Sure, the battery would charge fast. OTOH, could pull the batt down to say 80% pretty quick pushing the MH. And retro-fit the controls on a existing MH would be cheaper than replacing the MH.
As for MH on heavy duty E chassis. Compare the fuel used by MH to the amount used buy a working truck. Truck running deliveries every day could pay a premium price, and make it pay over the life of vehicle. Unless the price is close to IC the average MH owner will only be buying bragging rights. That is not to say bragging rights doesn't sell a lot of snot.

Yep. The Performance bragging rights will definetly sell product. Kinda like our car. Do we really need a 4 door sedan that goes from zero to sixty in under 4 seconds. Nah. But it’s kinda fun. :).

Reisender wrote:

JRscooby wrote:
I have been thinking a little different. From what I have seen the modern EV would handle all the duties of a toad. And spinning a electric motor with no power to it does no damage, as long as it stays in normal speed range. So no transmission issues, just release parking brake, and control brake system from MH.
Part of that control could be make the regen braking come on with or before jake. Think would be a cheap (I'm using 'cheap' as relates to energy, not always money) way to charge, using energy that would need to be dissipated. Yes, once battery is full charge you loose that whoa.
But we can make things more complicated. Existing tech allows car to slow itself if too close to another vehicle. Could a target be but on MH, so the drivetrain can be turned on, so when accelerating or going up hill the toad pulls itself, or even push the MH? This would mean the engine of MH would need less peak power.

Kind of a cool concept, although I think the battery would fill pretty quick. Just to give some real numbers, our Tesla sees regen rates of 80 KW.

I think within a few years there will be Motorhome manufacturers building motorhomes on complete Electric heavy chassis from companies like Freightliner and Tesla. The performance and simplicity will be stunning. Like I said, batten down the pots and pans. Zero to 60 in 8-10 seconds in a 32 foot Motorhome. Woohoo. :).

Sure, the battery would charge fast. OTOH, could pull the batt down to say 80% pretty quick pushing the MH. And retro-fit the controls on a existing MH would be cheaper than replacing the MH.
As for MH on heavy duty E chassis. Compare the fuel used by MH to the amount used buy a working truck. Truck running deliveries every day could pay a premium price, and make it pay over the life of vehicle. Unless the price is close to IC the average MH owner will only be buying bragging rights. That is not to say bragging rights doesn't sell a lot of snot.

Groover wrote:
OP here, I feel the need to make a few comments.
I used the 3.5 PowerBoost engine for an example simply because it is the only hybrid engine I am aware of that is available right now and I never said to use it in its current form or output levels. I just used for illustration of what could be.

That said, as far as I can tell everyone throwing shade at it has no first hand experience with it. I own two. The first is a 2013 model I gave to my daughter for driving to college and towing her horse trailer around. I picked the truck because it had been on the lot long enough to get some serious discounts. I don't even know what type of trailer tow package it has but she used it to pull her 3 horse trailer for several years then moved up to a gooseneck with living quarters. The only trouble we have had from the truck is with the brakes and it is over 130,000 miles now. The second EcoBoost is a 2016 model that is equipped with max towing package and has been pressed into service towing an equipment trailer giving me a GCWR around 18,000lbs. No trouble after nearly 5 years and 21,000 miles of pulling the trailer in addition to grocery getting. My experience trumps the opinions of speculators in my book.

I want a package that can be used with current technology boondocking or even in Glacier NP that has no power run to the campsites and very limited generator hours. The package I suggested would do that. The Ecoboost is so quiet that you could probably get away with running it all the time, especially if the exhaust was run up to the roof.

Heavy vehicles have the potential to get more benefit from a hybrid drive system than light ones since the benefit is derived from saving energy that would otherwise be put into the brakes and that is a function of the pull of gravity plus momentum(both mass related) minus the air drag. The mpg may not increase as many miles per gallon but the number of gallons saved would be much more in a motorhome than in a Prius.

A good hybrid system could take a lot of the peak loads off of whatever motor is used.

The PowerBoost 3.5 is rated for 530lb-ft of torque, 90% as much as my Cummins. That is a peak output but it could probably be increased with a little effort and a few thousand dollars.

I am looking for a package that doesn't run the price through the ceiling. I think that I what suggested might even enable a price reduction.

First, the 3.5 EcoBoost has turned out to be a good engine but they aren't putting it in the 3/4 and 1 ton trucks for a reason. We have no experience with the 3.5 PowerBoost as it's just coming out for 2021, so no one other than the Ford Engineers has any idea how it will hold up. The 3.5 EcoBoost has a decent reputation but 130,000 miles towing a 5-6k horse trailer isn't a long term durability test. Probably more important, what percentage of miles were towing? 21,000 miles is pretty much still brand new, so doesn't tell us much either. But again, it's a different drivetrain from the PowerBoost.

Now to the actual issue you brought up.
- If you just want to run house loads without running the generator, you can install a 5-10kwh lithium battery bank and do that now without getting an exotic drivetrain. By itself, it's certainly not justification to develop a hybrid drivetrain.
- Running a big motor as a generator all the time defeats the purpose. Also, most modern vehicle engines are pretty quiet. I have a 2008 V10 and it's hard to hear when idling from 20ft away...they still aren't going to be happy if they catch you running it, if for no other reason than to hold the moral high ground when they cite people running noisy generators.
- If you are driving to work in stop & go traffic with your MH, true, there is a potential to save a lot more fuel relative to a Prius. Problem is most miles in RVs are in rural areas under light traffic conditions. Most people avoid driving in rush hour when they do pass thru a city. At steady speeds, hybrids really don't provide a benefit over an appropriately sized ICE and unlike pickups that can have CGVW that range by a factor of 3...your average MH CGVW changes very little typically, so the engine can be better dialed in to the rig.
- It wouldn't really take much load off the motor in most conditions. Once up to speed on the freeway, the load is roughly the same and the batteries aren't designed to provide constant power for hours, so it's the ICE doing all the work.
- Diesels are more heavily built to handle the much higher compression ratios compared to gas engines. A side benefit is you can run them at a higher percentage of peak output without wearing them out quickly. So it's not the peak HP/Torque but the allowable continuous rating that matters, I think you will find the 3.5 continuous rating is drastically less than the cummins.

The PowerBoost only has a 1.5kwh battery bank feeding a 35kw electric boost motor. That means it can provide max boost for 2.5 minutes, so climbing a long grade, it's not going to do much of anything. It's really only useful for accelerating in stop and go traffic. For towing and climbing steep grades, the base 3.5l turbo charged gas engine is going to be doing pretty much all the work.

Why did Ford go this route? Because most people don't tow with 1/2 ton trucks for most miles. They run around empty and use it as a commuter vehicle where the hybrid aspect can provide significant benefits all while giving a very peppy performance boost running empty. It will probably do OK towing but when towing, the efficiency will go out the window (as shown by people complaining about mpg towing with the EcoBoost).

A standard Hybrid really won't provide a benefit to your average MH usage profile. A Plug-In-Hybrid could provide some but it wouldn't nearly as good as for a commuter vehicle and at what cost?

If you look at the commercial world, you see divergent approaches that are dialed in to the usage patterns:
- City buses have had great success with hybrid systems. A city bus typically peaks at around 45mph but usually is ranging between 0-35mph with stops every 1/4-1/2 mile. A city bus is pretty much constantly accelerating or decelerating. This is perfect for a hybrid.
- Long distance trucks, they are almost all looking at pure battery power because there is pretty much nothing to gain running at steady speeds using a hybrid.
- Short range delivery vans (like UPS trucks), they are looking at battery only but this is driven by the relatively short range they need. 200mile range can service most delivery routes and then it's easy to park at a designated lot that can be outfitted with slow charge ports as the trucks typically sit 10hr or more overnight. Where city bus service has limited hours, pure battery can work as the range may be acceptable and as with delivery trucks, there is a storage yard that can be outfitted with charging ports to charge over night.

Probably the closest comparison for a MH would be long distance trucks...and they aren't going hybrid.

JRscooby wrote:
I have been thinking a little different. From what I have seen the modern EV would handle all the duties of a toad. And spinning a electric motor with no power to it does no damage, as long as it stays in normal speed range. So no transmission issues, just release parking brake, and control brake system from MH.
Part of that control could be make the regen braking come on with or before jake. Think would be a cheap (I'm using 'cheap' as relates to energy, not always money) way to charge, using energy that would need to be dissipated. Yes, once battery is full charge you loose that whoa.
But we can make things more complicated. Existing tech allows car to slow itself if too close to another vehicle. Could a target be but on MH, so the drivetrain can be turned on, so when accelerating or going up hill the toad pulls itself, or even push the MH? This would mean the engine of MH would need less peak power.

Kind of a cool concept, although I think the battery would fill pretty quick. Just to give some real numbers, our Tesla sees regen rates of 80 KW.

I think within a few years there will be Motorhome manufacturers building motorhomes on complete Electric heavy chassis from companies like Freightliner and Tesla. The performance and simplicity will be stunning. Like I said, batten down the pots and pans. Zero to 60 in 8-10 seconds in a 32 foot Motorhome. Woohoo. :).

I have been thinking a little different. From what I have seen the modern EV would handle all the duties of a toad. And spinning a electric motor with no power to it does no damage, as long as it stays in normal speed range. So no transmission issues, just release parking brake, and control brake system from MH.
Part of that control could be make the regen braking come on with or before jake. Think would be a cheap (I'm using 'cheap' as relates to energy, not always money) way to charge, using energy that would need to be dissipated. Yes, once battery is full charge you loose that whoa.
But we can make things more complicated. Existing tech allows car to slow itself if too close to another vehicle. Could a target be but on MH, so the drivetrain can be turned on, so when accelerating or going up hill the toad pulls itself, or even push the MH? This would mean the engine of MH would need less peak power.

I have wondered how my coach would drive with an EcoBoost in the back in place of the Cummins.

6.7 Cummins 850-1,000 lb/ft of torque
3.5 Ecoboost 470 lb/ft of torque