Two Surge Protectors?

Mile High wrote:
Are you saying that NONE of these devices we are discussing are any more effective than a home strip surge suppressor because we don't have an effective ground within 10'?

Stop jumping to subjective conclusions. Deal with individual facts one at a time. If making conclusions from subjective beliefs and emotions, then every reply will make you feel like a child.

Stated were numbers for that one protector. Understand the significance of those numbers before making any conclusion. Why assume numbers for one anomaly define all protectors for all anomalies? Why jump to that unjustified conclusion? Therein lies your first problem. You want to be indignant rather than first learn what stuff does for each anomaly - with numbers.

Defined is why that one protector function is ineffective. Nobody said anything about earthing a rig. By remembering what Ben Franklin demonstrated over 250 years ago, or by remembering how electricity works, then earthing a rig would make damage easier.

Did I ignore other benefits such as detecting polarity, missing neutral, etc? Obviously not. Why did you ignore those first two paragraphs? Each completely different anomaly must be discussed separately.

Thumbs up or down are for consumers who want to be told how to think (also called brainwashing). Informed consumers learn how to separate scams from science. That means every reply and question should include or be based in perspective. That means numbers. Your every speculation is devoid of spec numbers. You want to assume all anomalies are same.

What do 2600 joules in that Surge Guard do? Nothing useful. Do those joules protect from other anomalies? No.

Does a Surge Guard protect from reverse polarity? Protect what? Reverse polarity does not harm appliances. Polarity is a human safety function. So what is being protected?

Does it protect from phase variation, frequency variation, excessive harmonics, or EMC/EMI? Apparently not. Is that protection required? Your answer should include numbers. Since each potential threat must be defined BEFORE recommending any solution. And each discussed separately.

Does it protect from an open safety ground? Apparently not even though that is a too common anomaly in campgrounds. It really should detect that anomaly.

Does it protect from brownouts? Say so with numbers. Is that protection necessary? If making conclusions from subjective reasoning, then tell us why. Remember to list what in an RV does and does not need for protection.

Of course 2600 joules says nothing about these other anomalies. What numbers exist so that one can make a conclusion?

Long before demanding a solution or being indignant, first define each threat. Which anomalies require effective protection? Tell us which anomalies are of concern in a campground - with numbers. Only then can a solution be discussed.

westom wrote:

Mile High wrote:
I for one don't understand a **** thing you are saying or recommending.

Surge Guard will 'absorb' 870 joules and not more than 1750 joules. If difficult, best is to ask why rather than post an emotion.

Potentially destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules. Why is that difficult?

That Surge Guard is electrically similar to other tiny power strip protectors. Specification numbers say so. Why is that hard?

Effective protector (a completely different device that unfortunately shares a same name) works because it is earthed. That should be obvious using concepts originally taught in elementary school science.

So which sentence is a challenge? You never said.

No need to get condescending - you're already talking down to me, but you haven't "dummied" it up near enough yet. Perhaps I need to just try to pull it out of you:

Are you saying that NONE of these devices we are discussing are any more effective than a home strip surge suppressor because we don't have an effective ground within 10'?

Are you suggesting we don't bother?

Are you suggesting we drive in a ground rod with 10' and bond the rig?

Are you focused on surge, and ignoring the other benefits of these systems such as detecting polarity, missing neutral, etc?

Just a simple thumbs up or down will work :)

Jim Norman wrote:
OK, So am I to understand that the two SurgeGuard brand units I have, the built in unit as well as the plug in unit are essentially useless as surge protectors?

First, let's define a word 'surge'. It is subjective. So a low voltage is a surge. Frequency variation is a surge. Reverse polarity is a surge. Too much current and resulting low voltage from a USB port is a surge.

This will discuss a potentially destructive surge that is a current transient - typically in microseconds.

Effective surge protection will always answer this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? World's best protector is ineffective IF it does not make a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth ground. Earth ground does not exist in any receptacle. Earth ground is typically in a pole.

At home, best protection for TV cable is a hardwire (installed for free) that connects that coax cable low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to earth. No protector required for best protection.

Phone line cannot connect direct to earth. So your telco installs and earths a protector. Protector is only doing what the above hardwire does better. Connects a surge low impedance to earth.

Protection for an RV is simalar. If a protector connects low impedance to a pole, then that protector can connect hundreds of thousands of joules to dissipate harmlessly in earth. Then effective protection exists.

Again, protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. Any protector is only as effective as its earth ground - an item that does the protection.

westom wrote:

Mile High wrote:
I for one don't understand a **** thing you are saying or recommending.

Surge Guard will 'absorb' 870 joules and not more than 1750 joules. If difficult, best is to ask why rather than post an emotion.

Potentially destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules. Why is that difficult?

That Surge Guard is electrically similar to other tiny power strip protectors. Specification numbers say so. Why is that hard?

Effective protector (a completely different device that unfortunately shares a same name) works because it is earthed. That should be obvious using concepts originally taught in elementary school science.

So which sentence is a challenge? You never said.

OK, So am I to understand that the two SurgeGuard brand units I have, the built in unit as well as the plug in unit are essentially useless as surge protectors? Or are they only useless in the rare case of a lightning strike? You keep saying that there units are only about as good as a cheap plug in strip so what do you recommend and use?

Mile High wrote:
I for one don't understand a **** thing you are saying or recommending.

Surge Guard will 'absorb' 870 joules and not more than 1750 joules. If difficult, best is to ask why rather than post an emotion.

Potentially destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules. Why is that difficult?

That Surge Guard is electrically similar to other tiny power strip protectors. Specification numbers say so. Why is that hard?

Effective protector (a completely different device that unfortunately shares a same name) works because it is earthed. That should be obvious using concepts originally taught in elementary school science.

So which sentence is a challenge? You never said.

westom wrote:

Jim Norman wrote:
My built in unit is a Surge Guard 41260, protects to 2600 joules,

So that Surge Guard will 'absorb' 870 joules and not more than 1750 joules. Potentially destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules (clearly not billions of joules). That Surge Guard is electrically similar to other tiny power strip protectors. Effective protector works because it is earthed. And does not 'block' or 'absorb' a surge.

What was posted previously completely applies. Especially the part about how a protector must connect low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to earth to protect from that type of anomaly. What happens when its near zero joules try to 'absorb' that energy? Those numbers should cause you pause.

I for one don't understand a **** thing you are saying or recommending. Maybe everyone else understands, but I'm in the dark.

Jim Norman wrote:
My built in unit is a Surge Guard 41260, protects to 2600 joules,

So that Surge Guard will 'absorb' 870 joules and not more than 1750 joules. Potentially destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules (clearly not billions of joules). That Surge Guard is electrically similar to other tiny power strip protectors. Effective protector works because it is earthed. And does not 'block' or 'absorb' a surge.

What was posted previously completely applies. Especially the part about how a protector must connect low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to earth to protect from that type of anomaly. What happens when its near zero joules try to 'absorb' that energy? Those numbers should cause you pause.

Since a lightning bolt may exceed 4 billion joules, you won't be protected from that.

Jim Norman wrote:
My built in unit is a Surge Guard 41260, protects to 2600 joules, my plug in unit is also a Surge Guard, I believe it protects to 3650 joules. I know the plug in unit works as it has caught issues at the post in a couple instances. I would appreciate learned commentary on these units singularly and in use together.

My built in unit is a Surge Guard 41260, protects to 2600 joules, my plug in unit is also a Surge Guard, I believe it protects to 3650 joules. I know the plug in unit works as it has caught issues at the post in a couple instances. I would appreciate learned commentary on these units singularly and in use together.

westom wrote:

Jim Norman wrote:
I have a Plug-In Surge Protector.
My new Coach has a built in Surge Protector.

Those are completely different devices for completely different anomalies (as a few have noted). A 'surge' addressed by a built in protector does not do and cannot protect from a type of surge that so plug-in protectors are suppose to protect from.

What does that plug-in protector do? It claims to 'absorb' how many joules? Hundreds or a thousand? That type of destructive surge can be hundreds of thousands of joules. So what happens when its near zero joules try to 'absorb' that energy? Those numbers should cause you pause.

If your built in protector was one that attaches at the pole, then it has a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth ground via that pole. If farther from earth ground, it does not effectively protect from that hundreds of thousands of joules. It only protects from those other anomalies.

An 'attach at the pole' built in protector would protect that power strip. Without a low impedance connection to earth, then that power strip remains at risk.

So what is the risk? A hundreds joule surge is routinely converted by electronics into rock stable, low DC voltages to safely power its semiconductors. What that power strip protector might do is already done better inside appliances. Sometimes, an adjacent plug-in protector can compromise better protection inside appliances.

In rare cases, a near zero protector (too few joules) can fail catastrophically (create fire). A cruise ship may confiscate it if found in luggage. Threat is rare but serious enough that many do not use plug-in protectors unless protected by that other 'connected low impedance to earth ground' protector.

Only answers tempered by numbers deserve attention. Read spec numbers for a built in protector to identify anomalies it addresses. Read spec numbers for that plug-in protector (especially joules) to identify the so little it really does. Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts. How much did you spend for that near zero protect function?

I am not sure that you saw my updated post regarding the SurgeGuard protector. If I am reading your post correctly you took me to mean I had a little power strip protector. I understand exactly where you are coming from. I plan on using my Primary, plug into the pole SurgeGuard in line with the on board unit, especially until I can confirm the on board units specifications. I do thank you for the clarifying post a there may be more than a few that would think a simple plug in power strip would do.