ethanol

DiskDoctr wrote:
Although some claim those who have repeatedly had problems with ethanol polluted gasoline are somehow either stupid or lying about their experiences, I can absolutely assure you I deal with these problems regularly with gasoline over 6 months old.

Fact. Repeatable. Solid.

Some of us, including me, have no problems with E10.

Although some claim those who have repeatedly had problems with ethanol polluted gasoline are somehow either stupid or lying about their experiences, I can absolutely assure you I deal with these problems regularly with gasoline over 6 months old.

Fact. Repeatable. Solid.

ktmrfs wrote:

babock wrote:
Not the first time I have heard someone think fertilizer is made out of oil. Not sure how that one got started.

BTW, not an ethanol fan but maybe at least check your facts a little bit.

also those who think most plastic comes from oil.

and remember, while NG is a byproduct of most oil wells, most NG in the U.S. comes from NG fields with virtually no oil.

start with methane, the go to ethane, and on to plastics or start with methane and add nitrogen from the air (air is 80 percent nitrogen) and you get fertilizer base stock.

Natural gas is an ingredient used to make fertilizer, antifreeze, plastics, pharmaceuticals and fabrics. It is also used to manufacture a wide range of chemicals such as ammonia, methanol, butane, ethane, propane, and acetic acid.

The ammonia is produced by the Haber-Bosch process. In this process, natural gas (CH4) supplies the hydrogen, and the nitrogen (N2) is derived from the air. This ammonia is used as a feedstock for all other nitrogen fertilizers, such as anhydrous ammonium nitrate (NH4NO3) and urea (CO(NH2)2).

Natural gas is a Hydrocarbon and yes, there are many natural gas wells.

And yes, SOME "plastics" are made from Natural gas, But NOT ALL are made from Natural gas. Many plastics ARE developed using cracked Hydrocarbons which originated from Crude.

Same with pharmaceuticals and fabrics and so on..

Crude to this day provides tons of products that you use, touch and feel along with medicines..

You see, not one drop of crude is wasted now days, many of the products which we take for granted actually was developed by using parts of leftovers from crude oil cracking.. Some products can be made using either natural gas which has been cracked OR Crude that has been cracked..

Can't do that with corn..

And yes, I HAVE worked in PA oil fields with my Dad, used to help him pump and maintain oil wells and I am familiar with crude oil and byproducts..

Crude oil DOES contain "natural gas", our oil wells depended on the natural gas we pulled off the well head to run the Hit and Miss engines..

Our wells used a vacuum pump to pull a vacuum on the well head, then the natural gas was pressurized via a separate compressor run from the hit and miss engine to about 60 PSI, that would condense the natural as and it would fall into a pressure tank..

The engine used some of the vapors and the rest stayed in the tank until we pulled some out as a liquid which we ran in lawn mowers, our pulling rig and anything else with a gas powered motor..

It was called Casing head gas, white gas or plug gas, very close to Naptha which is sold as Coleman fuel.. Evaporates fast. Low octane about 50-60.

In spite of what many people think Oil wells STILL are bringing up crude in PA and many other states in the US..

Natural gas and Marcellus Shale gas over the last few years have taken the spot light only for the reason that crude has gotten a bad rap from environmentalists and it sounds environmentally friendly to talk up Natural gas and shale gas..

My Dad also worked in a White oil refinery (which is still in business today), that refinery takes refined White oil which COMES from CRUDE OIL (Not Natural gas), cracks it with a hydrogen cracker process and makes the Petrolatum grease base for pretty much EVERY food grade product you can think of that uses a grease base (Vaseline, Vicks, lip balms) plus cosmetics as one of their main products.. There ARE some things that Natural gas cannot do like plain old Crude can..

babock wrote:

JaxDad wrote:
The end result of all of that is an engine running too rich and burning more fuel to do the same work.

You actually have that backwards, E10 fuel requires less air per volume of fuel so running E10 in an engine tuned for no ethanol fuel actually runs leaner.

Stoichiometric ratio for pure gasoline is 14.7 and for E10 is 14.1...but guess what, the engine ECU compensates for it anyway so your lean/rich argument is moot.

Go back and actually read the post, it’s not me that has it backwards.

babock wrote:
Not the first time I have heard someone think fertilizer is made out of oil. Not sure how that one got started.

BTW, not an ethanol fan but maybe at least check your facts a little bit.

also those who think most plastic comes from oil.

and remember, while NG is a byproduct of most oil wells, most NG in the U.S. comes from NG fields with virtually no oil.

start with methane, the go to ethane, and on to plastics or start with methane and add nitrogen from the air (air is 80 percent nitrogen) and you get fertilizer base stock.

Natural gas is an ingredient used to make fertilizer, antifreeze, plastics, pharmaceuticals and fabrics. It is also used to manufacture a wide range of chemicals such as ammonia, methanol, butane, ethane, propane, and acetic acid.

The ammonia is produced by the Haber-Bosch process. In this process, natural gas (CH4) supplies the hydrogen, and the nitrogen (N2) is derived from the air. This ammonia is used as a feedstock for all other nitrogen fertilizers, such as anhydrous ammonium nitrate (NH4NO3) and urea (CO(NH2)2).

Grit dog wrote:


Of course, it stands to reason that someone from Iowa is pimping corn growing, considering his or those around him make their livelihood from growing corn.
I don't mean this in a negative way either. I'm all for infrastructure improvements. Pass another tax bill to fund highways and bridges. I don't care. I'll pay and be happy about it.
Why? Because I make my money building roads and bridges. I'll tell you every 2 lane fneeds to be a 4 lane because I want to build it or at least have my competition busy so I can build the next road and make good money on it so I get a raise and a good bonus.

It's not rocket science folks and I wouldn't argue about it. Everyone has their own personal or professional agenda even if they profess not to or think they are unbiased.
Why? Because it's human nature to try to succeed or excel personally and professionally.
And for those that that is not a goal, well come along for the ride. The rest of the world needs you as well.

I guess morals is really out of style. :(

Gdetrailer wrote:

MWOwner wrote:
I usually don't reply to topics like this, but there have been some really big mistruths told on this topic. First of all the production of ethanol has a net positive energy balance even if you go back to the production of the corn. Modern ethanol plants have become very efficient. Second, the comment about using food for fuel doesn't describe what is actually happening. When corn is used in the production of ethanol, only part of the starch is used in the fermentation. What is left is a very high quality, and high in protein feed that is in high demand for livestock. There is no shortage of starch in the world. Also, ethanol has replaced MTBE that was used in our gas to reduce pollution. Well the MTBE was found to be a carcinogin that was getting into our water. Ethanol is a very safe additive that petroleum companies like to use in gas. It allows them to use a very low quality, low octane gas that doesn't have to refined as much and add the ethanol and come up with an 87 octane fuel. This poor quality gas that is used in the blend could be where some of the issues come from with using e10.

Wrong.

I would guess that you are in a corn farmer lobby, a corn farmer or have an interest in Ethanol production..

What you describe is impossible, you are describing an "over Unity" device, AKA PERPETUAL MOTION.

It takes energy to convert one thing to another, that is the law of Energy conservation.

That law says you cannot create energy or destroy energy but you can change it from one form to another.. The kicker there is each time you change the form of energy there IS some losses in the process.. Often this is in a form of heat, heat that is not recoverable to be able to put back into your new form of product.

Planting, cultivating, harvesting, moving corn, processing corn, making Ethanol from the corn ALL USES ENERGY.

Where does that energy come from?

Not corn.

Not solar.

Not wind.

Not nuclear.

The most of the energy comes from OIL.

Yep, OIL is key here, takes oil to prep the soil, oil to plant the seed, oil to harvest, oil to move the harvest to the plant..

Then at the plant they may use a variety of other energy like electricity (where do you think the electricity comes from?), natural gas or even more oil..

Then there is some other issues that nobody wants to talk about..

Like how destructive corn is to the soil..

Corn is extremely hard on the soil, takes most of the natural nutrients out of the soil which means one MUST ADD FERTILIZER to the soil just to get it to grow.. Then after the harvest you must add more fertilizers for the next season.

Guess what modern day fertilizers are made from?

OIL.

Yep, main ingredient or feed stock of fertilizers is OIL.

By the way, one must come up with the initial corn seed to plant, yeah, OIL is at work developing the corn seed that is used to plant the corn..

No matter how you try to spin it, making Ethanol for fuel usage is a NET NEGATIVE ENERGY when you start looking at the ENTIRE process, not just a small sample of a Ethanol plant efficiency..

Ethanol is not a "created" clean energy, it is a DIRTY NEGATIVE ENERGY (which means you put more energy into it than what you will ever get out of it).

Disagree if you like but that IS the truth.

Of course, it stands to reason that someone from Iowa is pimping corn growing, considering his or those around him make their livelihood from growing corn.
I don't mean this in a negative way either. I'm all for infrastructure improvements. Pass another tax bill to fund highways and bridges. I don't care. I'll pay and be happy about it.
Why? Because I make my money building roads and bridges. I'll tell you every 2 lane fneeds to be a 4 lane because I want to build it or at least have my competition busy so I can build the next road and make good money on it so I get a raise and a good bonus.

It's not rocket science folks and I wouldn't argue about it. Everyone has their own personal or professional agenda even if they profess not to or think they are unbiased.
Why? Because it's human nature to try to succeed or excel personally and professionally.
And for those that that is not a goal, well come along for the ride. The rest of the world needs you as well.

babock wrote:
Not the first time I have heard someone think fertilizer is made out of oil. Not sure how that one got started.

BTW, not an ethanol fan but maybe at least check your facts a little bit.

Just about ALL SYNTHETIC MANUFACTURED "fertilizers" use chemicals which ARE a byproducts of oil refining.

Oil refining is interestingly amazing, tens if not hundreds of thousands potentially millions of products actually use one or more hydrocarbons cracked from the oil..

Nearly every Pharmaceutical miracle drug every depends on uses a base from oil, one of the most common is Aspirin.

Ever use Vaseline, Vicks, mineral oil, Baby oil? Yeah, those are highly refined "White oil" byproducts which came from crude oil.

Cosmetics?

Yep, you bet, nearly every "beauty" item uses a base from crude oil..

Plastics?

Yeah, wouldn't have any plastics around if it wasn't for Crude oil..

Food?

Sure, where do you think food grade lubricating oils come from that are used to lubricate equipment used for processing food.

What is so hard to believe that Crude oil is in use nearly every aspect of life..

Crude oil is extremely versatile with possibly millions of different uses, VS Ethanol made from Corn which only nets TWO things (Ethanol and supposed food for livestock from the leftovers).

Also, bet you didn't know that "Synthetic motor Oil" is derived from cracking NATURAL GAS.. Yep, natural gas IS found in Crude oil..

babock wrote:

JaxDad wrote:
The end result of all of that is an engine running too rich and burning more fuel to do the same work.

You actually have that backwards, E10 fuel requires less air per volume of fuel so running E10 in an engine tuned for no ethanol fuel actually runs leaner.

Stoichiometric ratio for pure gasoline is 14.7 and for E10 is 14.1...but guess what, the engine ECU compensates for it anyway so your lean/rich argument is moot.

Less air per volume fuel means the engine is running RICHER
The Air volume ratio is different with E-10 yes.

And to someone who commented "No problems" The modern computer controlled engines adjust the fuel delivery so that it does not matter what fuel you use the engine runs properly. they sense unburned fuel or excess O2 in the exhaust and adjust to fix.

However. with less efficient fuels (Gasoline being a "1" on this chart, and E-10 is like a 9)

You will not get the same level of performance and you will burn more gallons.

BCSnob wrote:
Many synthetic fertilizers are manufactured using by-products from the petroleum industry.

Mainly methane. But not oil.