ethanol

Yes you can reduce the enegery in the fuel and add power

Take the 4 cylinder engine in my car, and replae it with the V-8 in my Motorhome and even if the fuel is only 75% as good you will have MORE POWER

What you will not have is more Miles per Gallon.

Mr Wizard, I agree with you 100%. i use E10 in everything since it is what is within decent driving distance and also because it works just fine.

You put quite and effort in your response, but i surmise it fell on deaf ears when opinionated folks are looking for something to point a finger at. :W

MrWizard wrote:
Matt
thank you for your observations and experience

i have to ask, why is the engine tuned for sea level ?
its not a boat with every where you have been, would not a tune for a higher 'mean' elevation been more fuel efficient ?

Mr. Wizard,

You point is very valid. The fact is that we live at 653'MSL and spend most of our time east of the Mississippi. When I did such studies, I found that not much changed in terms of tuning until you get over 3500'. But, this is why drag racers used to have a instrument that told them how to re-tune.

When we drove the Blue Ridge Parkway from the south and crossed the 5+and 6K peaks, I could tell she wanted more advance, but Mary would have been upset with me messing with the engine while she drove. When we crossed the Big Horn on the way to Yellowstone, at 9200, the tuning was not very good, so when we got to the park, I bumped the base timing up 3°. I wanted to lean it out as well, but the Rochester kit was safely at home.

We started to have knock issues about half-past Montana, so when we stopped at Theodore Roosevelt, I put the distributor back where is started.

I could put a more modern engine in the coach, but that will be cost-prohibitive for the rest of my expected life span. The comfortable retirement that I worked for was taken away by the abrogation of the bankruptcy laws some years back. Until then, we love out paid for coach.

Matt

MrWizard wrote:
I won't argue the political or food aspects of the situation

But sticking to the physics, and thermo properties of the fuels

Gasoline is more btu dense than alcohol
And coal is more btu dense than gasoline
Do you want to run your vehicle engine by converting to a coal or wood gasification system?
Yes that's real and has been done in the past

The physics dictate that the more dense the fuel, the slower the energy release and the more work involved to release/use it

Alcohol contains less energy per gallon, but will release it a lot faster, nitro even more so, yes it takes more gallons of fuel, to get the work done
But near instantaneous power availably of greater magnitude

Diesel fuel contains more energy that gasoline and requires a higher compression engine to convert that fuel to work

Jet engines, jet fuel is kerosene with additives to keep it from jelling/freezing

Your not burning 'K' in your RV or car either

Total energy content of fuel type of not the same, as engine output power of fuel type

You want Max power, tune your car to run on nitro, if you can afford to 'feed the habit'

You want Max mileage convert to DIESEL

I'm not saying put e10 in your 68 Dodge charger

But new vehicles are built to run e10, and have been for years
So are new small engine tools
Using 100% gas, won't hurt them, but most of the 'feel good factor'
Is just that .. personal feel good

I put thousands of hours on generators and engines every year, and i can't find any damage i can attribute to e10 fuel

Taking gas with 130,000 btu 90% by volume, mixed with ethanol 90,000 * 10% volume, aka 0.9 pure gas 0.1 ethanol
You end up with fuel that is 126,000 btu per gallon, 96.9% the total energy of pure gas

Is your daily driver 50 yes old? Really?
Yes Matt. I know yours is

Every small engines tool, produced, says not to store for long periods, with fuel in the carb,

wow, someone else that has the same thoughts as I.

Tom_M wrote:
People will believe what they want to believe.

If they are immune to education. Thing is, it's not a simple subject.

Turtle n Peeps wrote:
JaxDad this is what YOU said:

JasDad wrote:
You cannot reduce the amount of energy and ‘add power’ at the same time, it’s scientifically impossible. Ethanol has only about 2/3 the energy by volume, BTU’s, that gasoline does.

Are you really trying to argue that alky makes less power than gasoline?


I have already stated that you will use almost twice the methanol as gasoline and three to four times the amount of nitro as gasoline.

I don’t need to argue with you, you’re doing a good enough job by yourself.


We are talking about efficiency and pollution in everyday vehicles, not horsepower in nitromethane drag cars. Changing the subject to deflect away from science and facts doesn’t change either.


As you quite correctly quoted me above, I clearly said “ENERGY BY VOLUME”. You simply cannot reduce the available energy in a gallon of gasoline and at the same time add ‘power’ to it.


Further, as I pointed out earlier, you can’t add to the number of gallons of gasoline burned, fool the emissions system into incorrect settings, and introduce unburnable content like water and get anything but increased pollution and poor performance.

There are facts and statistics that will support pretty much anybody's view on this topic. This argument could carry on forever and I doubt that any conclusive result can be reached. People will believe what they want to believe.

I won't argue the political or food aspects of the situation

But sticking to the physics, and thermo properties of the fuels

Gasoline is more btu dense than alcohol
And coal is more btu dense than gasoline
Do you want to run your vehicle engine by converting to a coal or wood gasification system?
Yes that's real and has been done in the past

The physics dictate that the more dense the fuel, the slower the energy release and the more work involved to release/use it

Alcohol contains less energy per gallon, but will release it a lot faster, nitro even more so, yes it takes more gallons of fuel, to get the work done
But near instantaneous power availably of greater magnitude

Diesel fuel contains more energy that gasoline and requires a higher compression engine to convert that fuel to work

Jet engines, jet fuel is kerosene with additives to keep it from jelling/freezing

Your not burning 'K' in your RV or car either

Total energy content of fuel type of not the same, as engine output power of fuel type

You want Max power, tune your car to run on nitro, if you can afford to 'feed the habit'

You want Max mileage convert to DIESEL

I'm not saying put e10 in your 68 Dodge charger

But new vehicles are built to run e10, and have been for years
So are new small engine tools
Using 100% gas, won't hurt them, but most of the 'feel good factor'
Is just that .. personal feel good

I put thousands of hours on generators and engines every year, and i can't find any damage i can attribute to e10 fuel

Taking gas with 130,000 btu 90% by volume, mixed with ethanol 90,000 * 10% volume, aka 0.9 pure gas 0.1 ethanol
You end up with fuel that is 126,000 btu per gallon, 96.9% the total energy of pure gas

Is your daily driver 50 yes old? Really?
Yes Matt. I know yours is

Every small engines tool, produced, says not to store for long periods, with fuel in the carb,

The information in the link below tells us that if you take an engine setup to run on 100% gas and switch it to 100% alcohol. The mpg will be close to half of what it was before the switch.

marcsbigfoot20b27 wrote:
I think we need to remember that the ammount of fuel to air ratio for each fuel is different.

Gasoline 14.7 to 1 at stoich and about 12.8 to 1 at WOT/power

Look at the chart so see how much more fuel you need...

http://www.smokemup.com/tech/fuels.php

When weighing the cost of ETHANOL as a fuel, don't forget that FOOD is being used as fuel while there are many who are still starving in the US and other places.

Putting Food and Fuel in competition is B.A.D. all around and prices go up for both.

Ethanol is a contaminant in gasoline. The fact it is FORCED on "free citizens" to harm and do damage to equipment and force all into <6 month consumption and ZERO long term reserve capacity...is deplorable.

IMHO, you can have it available if you want it, but more realistic non-ethanol gas should be REQUIRED at every gas station with reduced taxes.