Help with hitch / tongue weight

Ron Gratz wrote:

LarryJM wrote:
I think the whole point here is to understand what wts. we should be considering if we want to say within the specifications of the various components of the WDH system (i.e. receiver, WDH bars, etc.)

I think the whole point here is to understand that adding "temporary cargo wt" after the WD is adjusted does not increase the vertical downward load on the hitch/receiver -- it decreases it.

There is no "

extra cargo wt. that constructively appears at the ball/coupler position.

"
The effect of "extra cargo wt." is to reduce the vertical downward load at the hitch/receiver position.

When force is applied to the WD bars as part of the set up process, the result is a reduction in vertical downward force on the hitch/ receiver.
When MORE force is applied to the WD bars by adding "extra cargo wt." and causing the ball to drop, the result is MORE reduction in vertical downward force on the hitch/receiver.

The vertical downward force on the ball mount is the greatest (and is equal to the TT's loaded "tongue weight") when no WD is applied.
When WD is applied, the vertical downward force is reduced by an amount equal to the amount of load which was transferred to the TT's axles.
When "extra cargo wt." is subsequently added, more load is transferred to the TT's axles and the vertical downward force on the ball mount is further reduced.

If the tongue weight ratings of the hitch and receiver are not exceeded by the TT's loaded TW, they will not be exceeded when WD is applied and they will not be exceeded when "extra cargo wt." is added.

Ron

The problem with what you are now saying is that you have already conceeded that applying extra cargo wt aft of the TV rear axle, a portion of that will show up as an additional wt. on the TT axles. Having extra wt show up on the TT axles w/o physically adding any wt to the TT can only come from what we typically classify as tongue wt that is being redistributed by the WDH to the various axles. Let's say that extra 50lbs you have used is because of an extra 200lbs applied on the rear bumper of the TV then just where does the other 150lbs show up axle wise. If some shows up on the rear axle and some on the front axle of the TV as I believe it will then that can be only attributed to 200lbs added tongue wt. that has now been redistributed in those amount among the three axles (taken say all axles on the trailer as one wt.)

In other words please explain how that extra 50lbs you have mentioned gets transferred to the TT axles by adding wt at the rear of the TV back axle.

Again, while you can disagree with what are considered other experts one such from a source that should have some credibility is etrailer and in THIS LINK this cargo is explained and attributed to tongue wt. Thus I'm not the only one to view this the way I am so while I might not be adept at explaining this others appear to agree with me and unless you can provide a similiar outside source supporting your view I will say I see your opinion and raise you one opinion that agrees with me by one.

I can't lay my hands on the exact reference, but will look further for it, but I seem to remember reading on another website that deals in these bike racks that attach to the drawbar and one said that the wt of the rack and any bikes had to be considered as additional tongue wt. too.

ON EDIT added 12:53am Feb 15, 2016 I'm still looking for additional info, but HERE is another etrailer example of what they call TW as used in sizing of a WDH system and gives numbers in their example showing the two components of this tongue wt as being the trailer tongue wt and the cargo aft of the TV rear axle. BTW the trailer tongue wt is what I have been calling the "dead tongue wt" for lack of a better term.

Here is another link CLICKY in the post by rabird on November 04, 2009, 05:29:23 PM that cites the etrailer ref along with one by REESE that he says is similiar. However, the link for the Reese info is broke an I haven't found a good replacement one to give yet, but am still looking.

ON EDIT added 1:12am Feb 15, 2016 While this might not be considered by some as a real expert it is another source bringing up to 3 that agree with what I am saying CLICKY. One can question how expert these three folks are, but the same question would apply to those posting in this thread like Ron which while I might respect his opinion, I'm not sure I would classify him as the same level of expert in these matters as someone like the folks at etrailer who have posted their info on a public website.

ON EDIT added 1:40am Feb 15 2016 Finally probably the most authoratative reference I can find is from the Cequent 2016 Catalog on page 343 (catalog pg D-16) CLICKY talking about sizing a WDH system which has been copied in red below


SELECTING THE RIGHT WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM
The hitch weight formula for determining the load
which the hitch must carry:
HITCH WEIGHT* = TONGUE WEIGHT +
VEHICLE CARGO LOAD BEHIND REAR AXLE
Tongue weight includes the trailer tongue weight
with full gas, water and waste systems and
everything packed inside the trailer. Vehicle cargo
includes all materials carried in your tow vehicle,
such as boat motors, gas cans, tools, etc.

I will note that what Cequent calls hitch weight in the above is what I have been calling "TONGUE WT" and as it applies to sizing things like the WDH system which to me includes not only the receiver but the WDH bars. My terms that I have consistently used and previously tried to explain are Tongue Weight = Dead tongue Wt (i.e. that measured by something like a Sherline scale) + vehicle cargo load behind the rear axle.

and with that I'm not sure I can give you any more what I call true expert opinions on what should and should not be included in TW when talking about WDH system and I think I can now rest my case and suggest those disagreeing with me or these "EXPERTS" take this matter up with them for further resolution since I have about exhausted my ability to provide correct info for those willing to listen and maybe learn something.

Larry