Forum Discussion

Explorer

Mar 30, 2016

Second Opinion, and a few questions

Hi! I posted a similar question on another forum (popupportal.com), and it was suggested that I pose the questions on here as well. I'm relatively new to trailer camping (I've rented a travel trailer a few times), and I think that I'm ready to take the plunge into ownership. To that end, I would appreciate a second (or third) set of eyes on my calculations to verify that what I'm looking at is reasonable.

I have a 2015 Ford Expedition 4WD EcoBoost, with the tow package. Per the Owners Manual, GCVWR is 15,100 lb, max tow rating is 9,200 lb, and max tongue rating is 920 lb with a weight distributing hitch. Per the sticker on the door frame, the GVWR of the tow vehicle is 7,500 lb, FAWR is 3,550 lb, RAWR is 4,300 lb, and payload is 1,364 lb. I've weighed the vehicle on a professional scale with a full 28gal tank of gas, and the weight is 6,080 lb.

* Question One: Why would the payload be 1,364 if the actual weight is 6,080, which should make the payload 1,420lb (difference of 56lb)? I've heard that the yellow sticker takes into account a 150lb driver, but the manual doesn't mention anything about this (and the difference isn't that far off). I may have some fluid levels a bit low, but I wouldn't think that they would be 56lb worth...

This difference matters because as far as I can tell payload appears to be the critical factor in my calculations. My family of 4 and I currently weigh a total of 585 lb (though they're still growing), and I plan to hold on to this trailer for a number of years, so I have to plan for their full weight. I estimate that fully grown we'll be at about 700 lb total. So, assuming that we keep minimal extra gear in the tow vehicle while driving, that leaves approximately 664 lb (or is it 720?) of available payload for trailer tongue and weight distributing hitch. The little bit of research that I've done tells me that WDHs weigh 60-110 lb, and since payload is so valuable, I'm assuming that I can find one closer to 60lb, leaving about 600 lb (or 660?) of payload for tongue weight.

I have 3 kids, so I have a fairly limited selection of trailers on the market to choose from. I plan to do some multi-day travel trips with this trailer, so I'm not really interested in a popup or hybrid due to the significant setup/takedown time of the beds. The kids are opposed to sharing beds, and I'm not interested in converting sofas or tables to beds every day, so I really want 3 individual bunks to keep the peace. And my payload limits me from the really big bunkhouses on the market (plus, my fear of towing a 38' monster).

The trailer that I'm currently looking at is the K-Z Spree 240BHS: http://www.kz-rv.com/products/spree-travel-trailers/240BHS.html
GVWR 6500 lb, dry weight 5170, dry hitch weight 570. Assuming 160 lb for propane and battery, 384 lb of water (40 gallons + 6 for heater), and 500 lb of assorted gear (I measured 532lb the last time we rented for a 2 week trip, but there's some stuff we never used), the loaded trailer should weigh approximately 6214 + options. Since I haven't purchased yet, I don't know what the actual weight is, but I'm guessing that 86 lb is a reasonable guess for options, meaning a loaded weight of 6300 lb. Total combined vehicle weight would be 13,140 lb, which is 87% of max combined weight. If we assume worst case scenario of a fully loaded 6500lb trailer, the total combined vehicle weight would be 13,340lb, or 88% of max.

Here's where the real guessing comes into play. Tongue weight is supposed to be 10-15% of trailer weight, which would calculate to 630-945 lb (less if I don't carry water, and limit some of the gear). Obviously, due to the payload capacity, I'm going to have to keep it right around 10%, which seems like it should be feasible because this specific trailer has a cargo area in front and back, so I should be able to adjust distribution of weight within the trailer a bit more than most other models. So, if I can adjust it to keep the tongue weight to 630 lb, the tow vehicle would be carrying 7470, which is only 30 lb under max GVWR.

* Question Two: I would be pretty close to the tow vehicles GVWR, but 2000 lb (13%) or more below the total combined weight rating. I've towed with similar weights in the "mountains" of the east coast, but I've never towed out west. Would this setup work in the higher average elevations out west? My impression is that tow vehicle GVWR is mostly limited by the structural vehicle components (axles, tires, frame, etc), and GCVWR would be limited more by engine/transmission/brakes. I know that engines lose some power as you go up in elevation, so I'm not going to be winning any races over the passes, but I *THINK* I'll be able to actually get over the passes eventually (though I'll be trying to avoid the 11,000' passes all the same). The weight on the structural elements wouldn't change, but I'm hoping that my lower GCW will help with the reduced power from higher elevations. What do you all think?

* Question Three: Do you see any fatal flaws in my calculations or assumptions? Better to learn about them now than after I've made a trailer purchase...

* Question Four, regarding weight distributing hitches: Despite what I've been told by multiple trailer dealers, I know that tongue weight doesn't just "disappear" with a WDH. I know that the weight's still there; all a WDH does is transfer some of the load off of the rear TV axle to the front TV axle. But recently I heard that some of the tongue weight also gets transferred to the trailer axles as well. Is there any truth to this? If so, how much should I expect? As I've stated above, I seem to be limited by payload, so any tongue weight transferred back to the trailer would help me add a bit more comfort buffer on the TV's payload (and maybe give me a few more options for WDHs, which seem to mostly be in the 90-110 lb range, rather than 60 lb). But then, how does this weight redistribution interact with the requirement that at least 10% of the weight remains on the tongue? Should I be planning on redistributing weight within the trailer to keep at least 10% of the trailer weight being put on the front and rear axles of the TV, after the WDH is in place? Or does the 10-15% requirement come into play before adding the WDH?

* Question Five, also regarding WDHs: The ratings on WDHs are a bit confusing to me. I've read that some ratings are maximums, and some ratings are distribution ratings, so what exactly should I be looking for (assuming a 6500lb trailer with tongue weight around 650 lb)? Is a 6000lb/600lb hitch going to work for me? Or should I be looking at the 10000lb/1000lb ones? (There don't seem to be 8000lb/800lb WDHs on the market, for some reason.) I've heard that if your spring bars are too strong, they don't properly distribute the weight, so "just going bigger" doesn't necessarily seem smart to me.

Thanks all for your thoughts on this. I've learned quite a bit lurking on this forum recently...when I first purchased the Expedition, I naively thought that "max tow" was the only thing I had to worry about, because that's what they advertise. I didn't even know that there was a payload rating to pay attention to.

khager76248
Explorer
Mar 30, 2016
Hi saw your post, unfortunately I am no able to answer many of your questions. My husband always figured the tech. stuff out. But I did want to bring up one thing, because we had a similar setup when we were starting out. 2004 Ford Expedition EB with tour package. We also had three girls and many times there friends with us.
Our first trailer was a hybrid, that's the only way we could get the right length trailer with 4 bunks. If memory serves me it was a 2008 Rockwood Roo 26 RS. It served it purpose for 4 or 5 years, but then the girls outgrew the bunks. We next went to a Class A. We put one on the floor on a blow up, and one on the couch. Or sometimes we would let them tent near by.(if it wasn't to hot, we live in Texas).

Anyway, we were told at the time of our purchase from someone else that was towing with an Expedition, that you really need to watch the length of the trailer. Our Expy, has a length of 205.8, and a wheel base of 119. It's kind of short. We were advised to keep the trailer under 27-28 feet. Anything longer would cause alot of sway(even with a equalizer bar). I can attest to having alot a sway even on our trailer. Unless you have the extended version, you might want to watch your length. And if you plan on traveling to Colorado, you might want to not use up all your allowed weight.

Anyway hope this helps alittle.
IDoMyOwnStunts
Explorer
Mar 30, 2016
I'm only going to address question 2 since I formerly owned an Ecoboost.

Since you have an Ecoboost, you won't lack for power getting up the mountains of the west. The Ecoboost isn't as affected by altitude as a NA engine due to the turbos. Going up is not going to be a problem.

Use tow/haul. On the downside of the mountain, tow/haul will help you with engine braking. Control your speed and don't ride the brakes.

If you have the screen for it, watch your transmission temperature. It'll probably be close to 200-210F. Don't let it get above 230F.

Hope that helps. I'm sure others will chime in on your questions too.
Lantley
Nomad
Mar 30, 2016
Without getting too much into the details.1364 is not a lot of payload.You can add in 56 pounds is you like which will bring you to 1420 which is still marginal.
You really need to stop at this point and consider upgrading to a more capable tow vehicle. 1420 is just not adequate for a TT and 4 people.
Figure 1000# for TW and that leaves you 420 pounds for passengers and gear.
I don't believe the sky will fall is you exceed the payload rating by a few pounds. But I don't believe you can ignore the rating either.
A combo that is within all of its ratings will always tow better that a combo that is within some of its ratings.
You need to have ample capacity to just load up your TT and go. You do not want to be in a situation where you have to weigh every plastic utensil or fret if your wife brings a case of sodas along.
It all starts with having an adequate tow vehicle vs. a marginal tow vehicle.
You also have to decide if you believe the ratings or you don't if you trust the rating you will abide by them. If you think the ratings are false you can fudge your numbers anyway you like.
In the end no matter how you slice it 1420 is a very limiting figure. It will ultimately limit your selection of trailers.
THere are more capable f-150 Eco boost models available that have max tow and max payload options. Those better equipped models are generally not found on dealers lots but often have to be factory ordered.
Good Luck, I think you have a thorough understanding but I don't think you have enough truck. Before you lock yourself into some sort of marginal combo consider upgrading the truck first.
With an upgraded truck you can get a long term combo.
With your current truck you are limited to a few choices that will not be long term as your kids grow. You will not be satisfied and will be on a continuous cycle of upgrades.
krobbe
Explorer
Mar 30, 2016
Scales have an error rate. 56lb of 6080 is less than 1% error. Go to another scale and your results may vary. Even the same scale will vary a little from one weigh to the next. The scale that Ford used will have some error as well. If 56lb makes that much of a difference to you, well maybe you're too close on the capacities. I'm not trying to be the weight police here. I am too close on payload myself when I carry 3 adults and 4 kids with an 1100# tongue weight. But my TV handles it pretty well.
Also, trying to keep the tongue weight to 10% is not going to be feasable. For starters, to prevent sway, the tongue weight should be 12 to 15%. And much of the storage is in front of the axles. Front passthru, under bed, etc. Is the freshwater tank in front of the axles as mine is? With only 10gal water, my tongue weight is 15% measured with my Sureline scale. If your numbers are close, I highly recommend getting one of these scales.
Aron
Explorer
Mar 30, 2016
khager76248 wrote:
Hi saw your post, unfortunately I am no able to answer many of your questions. My husband always figured the tech. stuff out. But I did want to bring up one thing, because we had a similar setup when we were starting out. 2004 Ford Expedition EB with tour package. We also had three girls and many times there friends with us.
Our first trailer was a hybrid, that's the only way we could get the right length trailer with 4 bunks. If memory serves me it was a 2008 Rockwood Roo 26 RS. It served it purpose for 4 or 5 years, but then the girls outgrew the bunks. We next went to a Class A. We put one on the floor on a blow up, and one on the couch. Or sometimes we would let them tent near by.(if it wasn't to hot, we live in Texas).

Anyway, we were told at the time of our purchase from someone else that was towing with an Expedition, that you really need to watch the length of the trailer. Our Expy, has a length of 205.8, and a wheel base of 119. It's kind of short. We were advised to keep the trailer under 27-28 feet. Anything longer would cause alot of sway(even with a equalizer bar). I can attest to having alot a sway even on our trailer. Unless you have the extended version, you might want to watch your length. And if you plan on traveling to Colorado, you might want to not use up all your allowed weight.

Anyway hope this helps alittle.

Yes, my Expy is the non-EL version, so has a similar wheelbase as yours. The trailer that I'm considering is 28', which is really about as long as I would want to go. I did tow a 26' trailer previously, without any sway, for whatever that's worth (not really much).

But I appreciate the feedback, especially for the knowledge that they make hybrids with bunk beds--every hybrid that I've ever seen has huge double or queen beds. I'll look into that a bit more. Thanks!
Aron
Explorer
Mar 30, 2016
IDoMyOwnStunts wrote:
I'm only going to address question 2 since I formerly owned an Ecoboost.

Since you have an Ecoboost, you won't lack for power getting up the mountains of the west. The Ecoboost isn't as affected by altitude as a NA engine due to the turbos. Going up is not going to be a problem.

Use tow/haul. On the downside of the mountain, tow/haul will help you with engine braking. Control your speed and don't ride the brakes.

If you have the screen for it, watch your transmission temperature. It'll probably be close to 200-210F. Don't let it get above 230F.

Hope that helps. I'm sure others will chime in on your questions too.

Very helpful feedback! I really don't know much about engines, so I don't really understand how a turbo affects things. I do have a transmission temperature gage, so I will keep an eye on it. thanks!
fla-gypsy
Explorer
Mar 30, 2016
Lantley wrote:
Without getting too much into the details.1364 is not a lot of payload.You can add in 56 pounds is you like which will bring you to 1420 which is still marginal.
You really need to stop at this point and consider upgrading to a more capable tow vehicle. 1420 is just not adequate for a TT and 4 people.
Figure 1000# for TW and that leaves you 420 pounds for passengers and gear.
I don't believe the sky will fall is you exceed the payload rating by a few pounds. But I don't believe you can ignore the rating either.
A combo that is within all of its ratings will always tow better that a combo that is within some of its ratings.
You need to have ample capacity to just load up your TT and go. You do not want to be in a situation where you have to weigh every plastic utensil or fret if your wife brings a case of sodas along.
It all starts with having an adequate tow vehicle vs. a marginal tow vehicle.
You also have to decide if you believe the ratings or you don't if you trust the rating you will abide by them. If you think the ratings are false you can fudge your numbers anyway you like.
In the end no matter how you slice it 1420 is a very limiting figure. It will ultimately limit your selection of trailers.
THere are more capable f-150 Eco boost models available that have max tow and max payload options. Those better equipped models are generally not found on dealers lots but often have to be factory ordered.
Good Luck, I think you have a thorough understanding but I don't think you have enough truck. Before you lock yourself into some sort of marginal combo consider upgrading the truck first.
With an upgraded truck you can get a long term combo.
With your current truck you are limited to a few choices that will not be long term as your kids grow. You will not be satisfied and will be on a continuous cycle of upgrades.

I agree with this evaluation. You are cutting things to close and could find yourself in the unenviable position of complete dissatisfaction with the way this handles. RV'ing is supposed to be fun not scare the living day lights out of you when traveling.
Aron
Explorer
Mar 30, 2016
Lantley wrote:
Without getting too much into the details.1364 is not a lot of payload.You can add in 56 pounds is you like which will bring you to 1420 which is still marginal.
You really need to stop at this point and consider upgrading to a more capable tow vehicle. 1420 is just not adequate for a TT and 4 people.
Figure 1000# for TW and that leaves you 420 pounds for passengers and gear.
I don't believe the sky will fall is you exceed the payload rating by a few pounds. But I don't believe you can ignore the rating either.
A combo that is within all of its ratings will always tow better that a combo that is within some of its ratings.
You need to have ample capacity to just load up your TT and go. You do not want to be in a situation where you have to weigh every plastic utensil or fret if your wife brings a case of sodas along.
It all starts with having an adequate tow vehicle vs. a marginal tow vehicle.
You also have to decide if you believe the ratings or you don't if you trust the rating you will abide by them. If you think the ratings are false you can fudge your numbers anyway you like.
In the end no matter how you slice it 1420 is a very limiting figure. It will ultimately limit your selection of trailers.
THere are more capable f-150 Eco boost models available that have max tow and max payload options. Those better equipped models are generally not found on dealers lots but often have to be factory ordered.
Good Luck, I think you have a thorough understanding but I don't think you have enough truck. Before you lock yourself into some sort of marginal combo consider upgrading the truck first.
With an upgraded truck you can get a long term combo.
With your current truck you are limited to a few choices that will not be long term as your kids grow. You will not be satisfied and will be on a continuous cycle of upgrades.

I appreciate the feedback, but a different tow vehicle is not really in the cards. had I been aware that payload was going to be such a limiting factor a year ago, I may have made a different choice. But for the foreseeable future, this is the vehicle that I have. And I'm learning that I'll need to pay very close attention to weights, whether I like it or not. I plan to stay within the ratings. if this trailer doesn't work for that, then I need to find something else.
Lantley
Nomad
Mar 30, 2016
Aron wrote:
Lantley wrote:
Without getting too much into the details.1364 is not a lot of payload.You can add in 56 pounds is you like which will bring you to 1420 which is still marginal.
You really need to stop at this point and consider upgrading to a more capable tow vehicle. 1420 is just not adequate for a TT and 4 people.
Figure 1000# for TW and that leaves you 420 pounds for passengers and gear.
I don't believe the sky will fall is you exceed the payload rating by a few pounds. But I don't believe you can ignore the rating either.
A combo that is within all of its ratings will always tow better that a combo that is within some of its ratings.
You need to have ample capacity to just load up your TT and go. You do not want to be in a situation where you have to weigh every plastic utensil or fret if your wife brings a case of sodas along.
It all starts with having an adequate tow vehicle vs. a marginal tow vehicle.
You also have to decide if you believe the ratings or you don't if you trust the rating you will abide by them. If you think the ratings are false you can fudge your numbers anyway you like.
In the end no matter how you slice it 1420 is a very limiting figure. It will ultimately limit your selection of trailers.
THere are more capable f-150 Eco boost models available that have max tow and max payload options. Those better equipped models are generally not found on dealers lots but often have to be factory ordered.
Good Luck, I think you have a thorough understanding but I don't think you have enough truck. Before you lock yourself into some sort of marginal combo consider upgrading the truck first.
With an upgraded truck you can get a long term combo.
With your current truck you are limited to a few choices that will not be long term as your kids grow. You will not be satisfied and will be on a continuous cycle of upgrades.

I appreciate the feedback, but a different tow vehicle is not really in the cards. had I been aware that payload was going to be such a limiting factor a year ago, I may have made a different choice. But for the foreseeable future, this is the vehicle that I have. And I'm learning that I'll need to pay very close attention to weights, whether I like it or not. I plan to stay within the ratings. if this trailer doesn't work for that, then I need to find something else.

I get it I assume the truck was fairly new. However if the truck is marginal the trailer you end up with will be somewhat marginal as well. This will lead to a road of future upgrades. It becomes a vicious endless cycle. At some point if you are going to RV camp you need to commit to an adequate tow vehicle the sooner the better.
Having to worry about being on the edge of your ratings will take the fun out of it.
I don't mean to sound harsh or be a spoiler, but I don't want to sugarcoat the info either
Aron
Explorer
Mar 30, 2016
krobbe wrote:
Scales have an error rate. 56lb of 6080 is less than 1% error. Go to another scale and your results may vary. Even the same scale will vary a little from one weigh to the next. The scale that Ford used will have some error as well. If 56lb makes that much of a difference to you, well maybe you're too close on the capacities. I'm not trying to be the weight police here. I am too close on payload myself when I carry 3 adults and 4 kids with an 1100# tongue weight. But my TV handles it pretty well.
Also, trying to keep the tongue weight to 10% is not going to be feasable. For starters, to prevent sway, the tongue weight should be 12 to 15%. And much of the storage is in front of the axles. Front passthru, under bed, etc. Is the freshwater tank in front of the axles as mine is? With only 10gal water, my tongue weight is 15% measured with my Sureline scale. If your numbers are close, I highly recommend getting one of these scales.

I hadn't considered scale variability...that makes sense. I'll have to weigh it on a different scale.

The 10% thing is frankly my biggest unknown. This specific trailer has storage in both the front and the rear, so I'm hoping that I can fine-tune it a bit, but I see your point. Maybe this trailer is just too much for my current rig...I'll have to think about it some more. One big unknown for me is how much weight the WDH redirects back to the trailer axles. To me, that seems like it could help considerably to allow the tongue weight to get closer to the 12-13% range without impacting payload.

I do intend to buy a tongue scale, considering that my payload rating is the critical factor here.

The local KZ dealer doesn't stock this trailer, so I had been thinking about having them special-order it for me. However, based upon the feedback I'm getting here, it may be worth traveling the 500 miles to the closest dealer that actually has one in stock to test out how it tows.