What is it about this subject that causes threads to close sooooo quickly?The last lasted 8 hours!!! before it was closed.So let's try this again, but folks - let's keep it civil. No name calling, no accusations.And to the moderators: Please don't close these threads. If you can't remove offending posts, at least consider banning the folks who are violating the rules. I know some people can't help themselves, but it is penalizing those of us who do follow the rules.These topics are of interest to some folks, and we don't want obnoxious behavior, so if you have an interest - KEEP IT POLITE!!

CapriRacer wrote:What is it about this subject that causes threads to close sooooo quickly?I think you answered your own question......it's not the subject. It's the inappropriate responses.

Last weekend, I took one of my ST tires to Discount Tire because it experienced a pretty major cut due to a road hazard. While there, I discussed the ST/LT dilemma with one of the more senior employees to get his perspective. I'll paraphase some of his comments:1. Trailer manufacturers use ST tires because they are cheaper to produce and purchase. When you're selling hundreds or thousands of trailers a year, you can significantly increase your profit margin by using the lowest cost products you can.2. The tire store deals with several unhappy customers every week who have premature failures of their ST tires. It has gotten so bad, that they have actually been working with one manufacturer to produce a ST tire just for their stores that has better reliability. But he said they don't have enough feedback yet to see if it's working.3. In his experience, he's seen no evidence that there are "special" treatments, chemicals, additives what-so-ever used in ST tires that are not also used in LT tires.4. He has personally examined sidewalls of both ST tires and LT tires, and he said that he has not seen any special reinforcement in ST tires that is not already in LT tires. 5. He reiterated that a person pulling a trailer with ST tires must maintain 65 mph maximum for safety purposes. He said even if you have to pass, don't exceed 70 mph for even a short period of time.I asked him if he had a trailer, and if so, what kind of tires were on it. His response was "yes, a horse trailer, and I retrofitted it with LTs".

If EVEYONE would just agree with me, agree with MY point of view and do what I do then there would be no problem and everyone would be,"appropriate."

FWIW: I purchased a new Keystone fifth wheel from Camping World in March, 2013. Prior to taking delivery, I had CW remove the factory junk STs and install Firestone Transforce HT 235/85R/16 LTs. One would think that if installing LTs on a brand new 12,000 lb trailer that is designed for STs (per the manufacturer sticker on the trailer)was unsafe or voided any warranties, Camping World would not have installed them. Or at least they would have had my sign a disclaimer.I love the LTs. They are a by far a superior tire than any ST tire I have owned.

Just the other day we had to buy tires for our utility trailer. The manager of the tire store said he could only sell us ST tires since they were for a trailer.I've been searching the internet for a PA law that says we must use ST tires on trailers, but can't find anything. All I could find was this:"Tire standards. A trailer shall have tires that were manufactured in conformance with standards contained in Chapter 159 (relating to new pneumatic tires). See 75 Pa.C.S. § 4525 (relating to tire equipment and traction surfaces)."We did end up with Towmasters (ST). We'll see...

ST vs LT tires. | Good Sam Community

flyinguy68
Explorer
Sep 14, 2013
JJBIRISH wrote:
flyinguy68 wrote:
JJBIRISH wrote:
It will have axle load rating (mine – 5040), rim size (15x6) and tire information (225x75xr15)PSI (65) and the trailers manufacture and VIN number… it MAY or MAY NOT use the Letter designations for the tire, but it don’t need to, because there are no LT tires in the size, weight, and PSI ratings listed for the trailer OE with the ST tire…

I have not here or ever before made a claim that you could not use a LT tire… but it seems people for the sake of argument read whatever they want into a post…

BTY You limiting factor seems to be your axle anyway not the tires… your OEM tires had a higher rating than your new ones, but both tires meet or exceed what I might consider as a marginal axle for a trailer that size…

now help me find on the manufactures website or catalogue, where your TransForce HT tires you installed are recommended or even a hint that that tire can or should replace your OE ST tire... and/or any OFFICIAL information from any tire manufacture stating that the LT tire is a good tradeoff for a OE ST tire...

Again some of these arguments are appropriate in the 5er forums, not too much in the TT forums, and need to be more specific as to trailer size in the general forums…

JJ is this what you are talking about? A tire manufacturer that is advertising an LT tire for trailer applications?
Link-> Goodyear

JJ I'm not sure what argument you are trying to make. As for me, just like my politics I am neutral middle of the road & independent.

Sorry for the delayed response… almost 4:30 and I need at least a few hours sleep…

That is a lonely example from GY of a LT tire being advertised for trailer use… other than the ST Marathon it is the only example in the GY stable… of course it is a LR G 110 PSI in 16 inch and is speed restricted all be it 75 and not 65 MPH with fitment only on the bigger 5er’s and possibly a few if any TT…
This is also why I said this argument has more merit in the 5er forum and not very much at all in the TT forums, and needs better explanation in the general forums…

But it does show there is no reason to not market any of the other LT tires, if in fact the mfg. believes they are a good for trailer fitments…

I have voiced no opinion in the ST/LT argument only questions that the mfg. won’t answer… and there is no official documentation to answer them… what documentation there is, mostly says not to use the LT for my trailer… I could post examples of that but it just causes more arguments even if it’s from the mfg…
I have been more critical of the ST and given my reasons why many times more than most, but have given my opinion that the Maxxis is the best ST tire and what I am using… I have also been very critical of Maxxis for their distribution system, so much so I even contacting them about it…

So again I ask why the tire manufactures duck and hide from a simple question like, can I use your model X LT tire on my TT…

The law says the tires must equal to or better than axle rating… OK, sounds reasonable to me…
why can’t/won’t the tire Mfg. say it so everyone is in agreement… I have already stated that I believe it is a liability issue, and the risk is high enough to the tire mfg. that they won’t accept it…

So If it’s a high enough risk that they won’t accept it, why should I accept it…

:h Quote "The law says the tires must be equal to or better than axle rating… OK, sounds reasonable to me…"

What more do you want? If you buy an LT tire that meets or exceeds your axle weight rating you are in compliance. It's seems pretty darn simple to me when you boil it down to just this. And from what I've read from both the ST & LT proponents. This is truly the ONLY requirement you must meet.

You have mentioned in depth about legality, liability issues. I truly believe that if a tire is not permitted for use in a particular application it will be stamped as such. I believe ST tires are marked for trailer service only. My ATV tires are marked "Not for highway use". That is how manufacturers absolve themselves from liability.
john_bet
Explorer II
Sep 14, 2013
FastEagle wrote:
john&bet wrote:
JJBIRISH wrote:

I would like to know where this recommendation label is posted on my trailer as to what type of tire I must use,LT or ST, if it so critical. I can not find one.

On your trailer the certification label is supposed to be on the left forward exterior portion of the trailer. Probably just forward of the basement door or propane door.

All 2004 & 2005 Keystone trailers with 6000# GAWR axles came equipped with LT235/85R16E tires of various brands. Most of them had failure rates very similar to those trailers and axles fitted with ST235/80R16E tires in subsequent years. That is, of course, a subjective finding, based on my personal research.

FastEagle
Fast Eagle, That label, as I have said before does not list LT or ST only size, 235/85/16E. My manufacture does not make a recommendation as to LT or ST. Some day I might go to the trouble of posting a picture of it for you.
RVUSA
Explorer
Sep 14, 2013
donn0128 wrote:
Go study the tire testing standards paying particlar attention to the load and speed tests and how much more testing LT tires have to go through. If that does not convince you then nothing will.

they only go thru 1 additional test that the ST's dont, partial pressure at 70mph.
CapriRacer
Explorer II
Sep 14, 2013
If I may:

I used to answer questions about the suitability of certain tires on particular vehicles. It is a question chock full of pitfalls as answering in the affirmative gives a sharp lawyer a point of leverage.

So you will rarely find a tire manufacturer directly answering these kinds of questions. They will always be cloaked in qualifiers or vague terms, if they are answered at all.

In the case of ST tires, since there is virtually no commonality in tire size, it is easy for a tire manufacturer to avoid the pitfalls by stating that an LT tires is not a suitable replacement for an ST tire - and that would be correct since there is no tire size that directly corresponds.

But if certain factors are accounted for, then an LT tire COULD be used as a replacement - BUT - a tire manufacturer will want to shift the legal burden to the person making that decision and not take it on themselves.

I hope everyone is clear on this point as it can be a source of difference as to what a person does. What one person feels is the right move can be different than someone else's. If you can't understand and respect why someone would do something different than what you would do, then perhaps you shouldn't be posting.
CapriRacer
Explorer II
Sep 14, 2013
McZippie wrote:
Capri Racer, thanks for your reply and no offense intended but you didn't answer my questions...........

The reason not to use ST tires on tow vehicles is the difference in what each vehicle does.

The trailer merely follows the tow vehicle, while the tow vehicle has to steer and power the unit forward. That's additional stresses on the tow vehicle's tires that aren't on the trailer tires. Yes, the trailer has brakes, but that is intermittent - not like the constant force needed through the drive tires. - And, yes, the trailer does corner, but the primary force in turning the trailer occurs at the hitch - which means the tow vehicle is generating that force through its tires.

So what about traction? Obviously the trailer tires don't have to have as much traction capability if most of the work is being done by the tow vehicle.

What about treadwear? Since most tire wear occurs in the cornering mode, and most of the cornering work is done by the tow vehicle, the trailer tires don't need to be long wearing. - and, yes, there is wear that occurs on the drive tires, that isn't present on the trailer tires.

So, overall, while the casings may be the same (or similar) between ST tires and LT tires, the tread is generally completely different - and in the case of LT tires, needs to be of a higher traction and wear capability.

And that's why ST tires are unsuitable for tow vehicle usage.
JJBIRISH
Explorer
Sep 14, 2013
flyinguy68 wrote:
JJBIRISH wrote:
It will have axle load rating (mine – 5040), rim size (15x6) and tire information (225x75xr15)PSI (65) and the trailers manufacture and VIN number… it MAY or MAY NOT use the Letter designations for the tire, but it don’t need to, because there are no LT tires in the size, weight, and PSI ratings listed for the trailer OE with the ST tire…

I have not here or ever before made a claim that you could not use a LT tire… but it seems people for the sake of argument read whatever they want into a post…

BTY You limiting factor seems to be your axle anyway not the tires… your OEM tires had a higher rating than your new ones, but both tires meet or exceed what I might consider as a marginal axle for a trailer that size…

now help me find on the manufactures website or catalogue, where your TransForce HT tires you installed are recommended or even a hint that that tire can or should replace your OE ST tire... and/or any OFFICIAL information from any tire manufacture stating that the LT tire is a good tradeoff for a OE ST tire...

Again some of these arguments are appropriate in the 5er forums, not too much in the TT forums, and need to be more specific as to trailer size in the general forums…

JJ is this what you are talking about? A tire manufacturer that is advertising an LT tire for trailer applications?
Link-> Goodyear

JJ I'm not sure what argument you are trying to make. As for me, just like my politics I am neutral middle of the road & independent.

Sorry for the delayed response… almost 4:30 and I need at least a few hours sleep…

That is a lonely example from GY of a LT tire being advertised for trailer use… other than the ST Marathon it is the only example in the GY stable… of course it is a LR G 110 PSI in 16 inch and is speed restricted all be it 75 and not 65 MPH with fitment only on the bigger 5er’s and possibly a few if any TT…
This is also why I said this argument has more merit in the 5er forum and not very much at all in the TT forums, and needs better explanation in the general forums…

But it does show there is no reason to not market any of the other LT tires, if in fact the mfg. believes they are a good for trailer fitments…

I have voiced no opinion in the ST/LT argument only questions that the mfg. won’t answer… and there is no official documentation to answer them… what documentation there is, mostly says not to use the LT for my trailer… I could post examples of that but it just causes more arguments even if it’s from the mfg…
I have been more critical of the ST and given my reasons why many times more than most, but have given my opinion that the Maxxis is the best ST tire and what I am using… I have also been very critical of Maxxis for their distribution system, so much so I even contacting them about it…

So again I ask why the tire manufactures duck and hide from a simple question like, can I use your model X LT tire on my TT…

The law says the tires must equal to or better than axle rating… OK, sounds reasonable to me…
why can’t/won’t the tire Mfg. say it so everyone is in agreement… I have already stated that I believe it is a liability issue, and the risk is high enough to the tire mfg. that they won’t accept it…

So If it’s a high enough risk that they won’t accept it, why should I accept it…
ol_Bombero-JC
Explorer
Sep 14, 2013
CKNSLS wrote:
ol Bombero-JC wrote:
fla-gypsy wrote:
Vulcaneer wrote:
Find ST tires that are made outside of China, and you might have something there.

I won't be buying any Chinese tires. So I had to go with Firestone Transforce HT. Works for me. And I can drive faster than 65 MPH.

That's easy, Maxxis ST tires are made in Thailand

The *easy* part is checking the country of origin code on your tires.

Maxxis tires are made (manufactured) in:

Yauan Lin Taiwan
Xiamen China
Kunshan China
Payong Province Thailand
and Vietnam by the - Cheng Shin Rubber Company.

Regardless of the mfg location, Maxxis has demonstrated there are (some) quality ST "Chinese" tires available..:W

~

There has been at least three failure threads on Maxxis tires. When you look at the small number installed on travel trailers, I don't think Maxxis has demonstrated anything.

Well mea culpa,..:E.... ROTFL!..:R

I used the term "demonstrated" - referring to the number of satisfied users who post they *have* successfully used them on trailers (does that qualify as "some" as I stated?)- - as opposed to the THREE failure threads you indicate..:S

But - Yikes! The sky is falling - raining..... Maxxis!
And you deserve high marks for being nit-picky.
BTW - However, it's OK by me - I've never owned any Maxxis tires..;)

BTW - there has been at least one Michelin failure thread.....
and lost count of how many GY ST Marathon failure threads on here and other forums (for years), including Marathons mfg in the USA.

~
JJBIRISH
Explorer
Sep 14, 2013
JIMNLIN wrote:
Jack, I could respond in like to your usual personnel attacks but the OP requested we keep it civil.

:h personal attacks??? so responding to you accusation is a personal attack... ok if you say so...

Jim,

Who is playing word games… it is you that says you have to ask the question a certain way to not complicate things for them and box them in…
So essentially you are saying these guys don’t have the intelligence to market a legal product for a legal use to the American public… not that’s funny if there is anything that has been said that is funny…

Now your making wild claims and putting words in my mouth and theirs. If you have a problem with the way their legal eagles write up a disclaimer take it up with them. I understand both sides of their story.

Am I... it isn't your common refrain to accuse more than one poster on more the one occasion and in more than one thread of setting up the tire MFG..

These were not you words,
“The OP backed BFG into the liability corner with that type question. He will get the same answer from any LT or P tire maker by asking for a direct replacement for a ST tire.”

0r this is not a statement you made, “If your really interested in using LT tires don't back the tire makers or their dealers into the liability corner. “ And this isn’t soft balling the question to get the answer you want…
you have made it and accused other poster of setting up the tire manufactures many times now…

Ok these statements are out of context in that they were made in other threads but are not wild claims at all, they were made in one form or another often enough to be part of your brand…

The Tire builders built conceived, designed, and engineered the Special Trailer tire…
The Tire builders, wrote the marketing for the ST tire claiming its virtues…
The tire builders professional associations back and support the claims made about the ST tire and they too don’t endorse using LT tires to replace a OE ST tire…

LOL. More word games Jack. I have no idea where your comming up with this so I won't ask for a credible source. Now let me play your word game. Every tire maker I've contacted agrees their LT tires can be used on a trailer if it meets the trailers axle load requirements.

it is industry standard... ST tires are made to carry heavier loads, on and on and on almost any site you care to look at... no not word games at all...
if every tire maker you have contacted says that (and I don't personally disagree), why don't they say it in public, in their catalogs or on their web sites...

Could the ST tire thing have been a conspiracy as some think??? Could their Marketing of the ST tire expose them to some action if they knew it wasn’t true and just a way to fraudulently get your money???

??? Never heard that one before. The ST tire is what it is and will have to stand on its own reputation with all trailer owners.

I don’t know, but I know one thing is for sure, there is a reason they don’t market the tire for what everyone says is legal use…

both of my statements above are actually meant to be one… I am obviously not a professional writer…

I have occasionally read conspiracy stories on more than one RV related forum, more when I was actually researching the ST tires reported problems… while I don’t know about that I don’t discount it completely either… there are too many things that don’t add up, both in their marketing and the non-marketing, resistance to include the ST tire from the latest code updates…

I see no reason a LT or P tire manufacturer would advertise their tires for trailer use. They certainly don't have to. As we all know ST/LT and P tires have came OEM on trailers of all types. Hell I can have the trailer manufacturer mount my used or recapped tires of any type on a new trailer when it comes from the trailer manufacturer.

Ya it makes no sense for GY to market their Wrangler tire to their trailer users, because they already market the Marathon as a great trailer tire since sliced bread… however other mfg.’s aren’t so positioned, and it makes absolutely no sense that they would throw away that market if they have a tire to fill the bill…:h
Me_Again
Explorer III
Sep 14, 2013
I am reading and laughing. Tire industry is basically self regulatied and if you do not believe that ST tires are not strongly marketed , then I have a bridge in the desert to sell to you. There may even be paid marketing agents posting here. Only we as consumers can change this fraud we are subjected to regarding third tier tires that do not belong on 60-80k RV trailers. Or horse or boat trailers, or any other non local use trailer.

Back to more laughing! And enjoying knowing that I have used and will continue to use the two best tires anyone has ever install on a trailer axle.

Chris
flyinguy68
Explorer
Sep 14, 2013
JJBIRISH wrote:
It will have axle load rating (mine – 5040), rim size (15x6) and tire information (225x75xr15)PSI (65) and the trailers manufacture and VIN number… it MAY or MAY NOT use the Letter designations for the tire, but it don’t need to, because there are no LT tires in the size, weight, and PSI ratings listed for the trailer OE with the ST tire…

I have not here or ever before made a claim that you could not use a LT tire… but it seems people for the sake of argument read whatever they want into a post…

BTY You limiting factor seems to be your axle anyway not the tires… your OEM tires had a higher rating than your new ones, but both tires meet or exceed what I might consider as a marginal axle for a trailer that size…

now help me find on the manufactures website or catalogue, where your TransForce HT tires you installed are recommended or even a hint that that tire can or should replace your OE ST tire... and/or any OFFICIAL information from any tire manufacture stating that the LT tire is a good tradeoff for a OE ST tire...

Again some of these arguments are appropriate in the 5er forums, not too much in the TT forums, and need to be more specific as to trailer size in the general forums…

JJ is this what you are talking about? A tire manufacturer that is advertising an LT tire for trailer applications?
Link-> Goodyear

JJ I'm not sure what argument you are trying to make. As for me, just like my politics I am neutral middle of the road & independent.