Unsafe at any speed....

downtheroad wrote:

Bull Rider wrote:
...snip
Something is really wrong when a tire can just explode while on the spare tire holder. These substandard tires are dangerous and I wish there was an agency that would investigate why these crappy tires are failing.

I agree with you..
You can bet that if this were occurring with passenger car or truck tires there certainly would be something done about it.

There is, and it is up to you to report it!!! Go to the same government site where you check on recalls for cars. Here is the link to File a Tires, Equipment or Child Seat Safety Complaint at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. If you don't report it, nobody knows about it. If you don't report it, nobody can gripe that the NTHSA is no doing its job! It is all on you!!!

Turtle n Peeps wrote:
Thank you for your insight and no criticism taken about the pictures. Barely got those off before the camera went dead.

Anyway, bottom line. IYHO what causes these types of failures?

It is construction, contamination or materials?

To me it looks like they are not using enough "glue" to stick things together. IOW's all of the plys are separating from each other and the casing. The plys and casing still look good to me but they are separating. Michelin had huge problems with this X Radial make of tire doing this. This is why to this day I won't put a Michelin tire even on my wheel barrel.

I was told in the cap world, this is caused by contamination. What about new tire world?

IMHO, this is all about context. Different kinds of tires suffer from different kinds of issues.

In the case of passenger car tires, it's been demonstrated that inflation pressure is a big contributor. Since inflation pressure is directly related to load carrying capacity, this could be stated as a load issue.

But when it came down to fixing this, all the tire manufacturers changed constructions.

In the case of large P metric's and LT metric on SUV's and pickup trucks, the inflation pressure situation is even worse - and again related to load carrying capacity.

P metric tires on SUV's were particularly of interest a few years ago - the Ford / Firestone situation. This was, IMHO, primarily a materials properties / design issue.

However, tire manufacturers improved the performance by changing constructions.

LT metric tires had issues too - and those were fixed by changing constructions.

We also know that loads on ST tires are suspect. But here we have some common denominators that are interesting - and that is that many of these tires are made in China.

Here the problem remains - and based on the fact that construction changes eventually fixed these issues in other type of tires, I would presume that construction changes would fix those as well. The fact that many report success with LT metric tires seems to point to using the same construction as an LT tire.

So what do I mean by "construction changes"? These are details about the thickness and the material properties of the belt edge insert (between the 2 belts). Cap plies is also something that improves the situation. There is also some belt edge treatments that have been used successfully.

And then we have the age issue. Every time an analysis is done about where these failed tires are coming from, the same 5 states always rise to the top - and more or less in order: AZ, CA, TX, NV, and FL. FL may seem the odd man out, but if you compare the yearly cycle of temperature for - say - Orlando and compare that to - say - Phoenix, you'll notice that the temperature in Orlando is warm all year round, where the temperature in Phoenix is only hot in the summer. I think this has to do with heat history. While FL doesn't get as hot, it gets heat year round.

Contamination? Haven't seen it - and that fact the construction changes also seem to be the answer, seems to confirm this is not the issue.

Or perhaps you could say, that whatever the true issue is, making construction changes overwhelms the problem enough to render it moot.

PS...my road bikes now run on Conti and Bontrager 700Cx23 tires and no cracks
like the Michelin Lition's (IIRC, $79 bucks each tire)

Scary how my life was on the line with those bicycle tires

Thought to post the Timberline crack








michelin Tire splitting

BenK wrote:
Posted: 03/03/13 11:04pm

Used to be a fan of Michelin's, but no more...here is a link to why
below

Currently have Bridgestone Dueler Revo LT265/75R16E's on Alcoa alloy 16x10's
and are about 5 years old and don't drive my Sub but on weekends
to keep things lubed and tires worked. About 12K miles on them
and they look very close to new.

Best tires and the below quote
from that thread

Nit, but bought a new bike work stand ($350) and it has a digital
scale...my old alu frame bike is NOT as light as thought...it is
17.3 lbs...even with that $350 seat and carbon fiber fork...that old
'precision' fish scale was a bit off... :E

Moved that seat to the new Madone 6.5 and IT IS 15.7 lbs, based on
that nifty new scale... :B

BenK wrote:
Used to tell everyone who asked to consider Michelin LTX series...fine till Michelin
changed their rubber formulation. Quote below shows pics of many sets of Michelin
LTX (MS & AT) and my bicycle tires...they all cracked whereas they did not before
that reformulation

Currently have a set of Bridgestone Dueler Revo's that are about 5 years old. Same
Suburban. Same house, same driveway (not garaged), same city, same ambient, etc and
they are 'fine' with no signs of cracking whatsoever

Coopers are on the mini van and looking good. The Michelin's started to crack and
do not know how long they were on there, as bought the Odyssey used



http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/post/forum/41/thread/26414210/quote/26420168.cfm

BenK wrote:
Also depends on how long you plan to keep your TV

I plan to keep mine till the wheels fall off, then fix it or decide not to

I rotate tires on all 4 of my vehicles and even dismount to remount the tires on
my single speed bicycles to even out the wear

If you change vehicles every 2-3-4-5 years, then moot point. Do whatever

If you do keep them longer to need a new set of tires, then decide on what you
wish to do with the spare.

Dad didn't believe in rotating the spare and when he gave me the Silverado listed
in my sig, it had a spare tire that was over 12 years old. It looked 'fine', but
it had indications of rot all over it. The on the road tires had been replaced
a few times to boot.

Here is a thread and pictures of my experience on tires. From spares to on
the road sets. Also why I no longer recommend my old favorite...Michelin.

Since I no longer own the boat, I do not tow as much these days. Both my trucks
had tire rot and the thread linked below shows what happens to tires that do NOT
get enough usage.


This image is of a Michelin LTX-MS LT265/75R16E's which list $250/each



The clicky to that old thread which might help folks decide on their usage of
their spare tires

1/3 of tire strength gone after 3 years

BenK wrote:
All things age and part of that is degradation of it's strength

Like all metal will degrade over time. Steel will actually increase in hardness
and become brittle.

Organic based materials will degrade faster than coated metal, unless it has been some
how altered or enhanced. There are reasons for paint, plating, coatings, waxing,
etc, etc...

Do not delude thinking that seat belts last forever. There is a lot more safety
margin dialed in that it may seem to last forever...but how do you truly know
unless you either crash test it or have it tested in a lab...OBTW...
a childs seat belts are how wide/thick compared to the OEM seat belts
that hold it to the vehicle seat? Anyone ever look closely at any
child seat to see if there are juice spills, milk/poo-pee/spit/etc that
has an acidic component to it? Yes poo n pee, as diapers do leak, or
at least my kids did...

My bicycle helmet is only good for a few years. My car and bicycle tires are
also only good for so long. The tire on my wheel barrows and hand carts are
way old, has cracks on them and know they need replacement...but their service
is at how many MPH ? Life and death duty placed on them? Nope, so they are okay
for my usage, but have purchased several new ones recently as I'm tired of having
to pump them up each time I use them...they lose PSI quickly

Okay, can see some self serving opportunistic marketing, but why
test it with a potential condition that might/will harm your child
or yourself? How much would be saved by not updating it vs the
potential of harm to your child?

Of the three classes of tires in this discussion, which is the cheapest? Which
costs more? Why do you think they have such a cost difference?

Check out this thread on tires...
http://forums.woodalls.com/Index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/25105483/srt/pa/pging/1/page/1

And a quote on my opinions and experience on that topic...

BenK wrote:
Update on another set that replaced the Silverado's Michelin shown
below...Think ALL of the tire OEM's have changed their formulation
on 'P' and 'LT' tires

Timberline 33/12.5R15LT load range C on the same alloy wheels as
the Michelin's. They have now cracked on the tread area. Here are
some pic's. Only drive the Silverado weekends and errands. Don't
tow anything other than an occasional utility trailer. Haul tons
of stuff...gravel, dirt, fertilizer, wood pellets, wood, etc They
are aired up to 30 PSI. Max sidewall PSI is 35
















Ancillary...my road bicycle tires...Michelin 700C/23 $79/ea. Less than
a year old and about 500 miles (have 4.5 bicycles, so the mileage
is spread out over them all). Air them up to 110 PSI. Sidewall
says 119PSI max. Do run up to 50MPH-60MPH going downhill, but
after checking and finding this...am going to check the more often

Got doored last week and after the EMT's, Ambulance, and cops
were through with me (not hurt bad, just a bruise about 8" dia
on the chest)...destroyed the road bike (got it down to just a hair
above 15lbs)....min $700 estimate from the bike shop...going to fix
as my daily and buy a new road bike...jinxed it...last month finished
some mod's, weighed it in at 15.7lbs and said out loud...this is almost perfect

BenK wrote:
I'm very loyal to what I've checked out, tested (empirical) and low on my list...what
buddies/friends/etc recommend (really factored by how much they know, or what
I think they know)

Was a huge Michelin fan, till about 6-10 years ago when my sets started to crack
on the sidewalls

Took them in and the Michelin rep accused me of using ArmorAll. Told him no way
as the previous rep told me not to and would void the warranty. Named him and
described the discussion at Costco. He retracted and said they were out of warranty (time)

Used to recommend Michelin truck tires to anyone asking. NO more. This
is "MY" experience and know some who still have no problems, but again
this is MY experience and recommendation on Michelin 'TRUCK' tires. I
still recommend their 'car' tires for 'cars'...not trucks.

Here are some pictures of several sets of LTX-AT (LT265R16C) and LTX-MS (LT265R16E...$250 ea list)
4 sets of 5 tires for my 1980 Silverado and 1996 Suburban















Woke up one morning to find this on my Suburban









Aired them back up several times and they leaked down in less than 10 minutes
from the sidewall cracks.


Here are some more of different sets...yes, "WAS" very loyal on Michelin till
this experience








And this LT265/75R16E's (first set, second set above pics). Too many sipes for
my type of driving...HARD braking testing buddies proto brake pads on one +80
mile session. The tread blocks folded over to feather the sipe edges.

For me, it is mainly with the Michelin's. Both 'P' class and 'LT' class on
trucks and cars. The 'ex' got the two lux sedans and they both had Michelin's
and they were also cracking (lived at a different home, but same town)

Currently have Bridgestone Dueler Revo LT265/75R16E's on 16x10 alloys on my Sub
About 6 years with less driving than the previous Michelins.

Same PSI

Same alloys

Same town, same spot on the driveway 'outside'.

Same driver beating them up on pavement and off-roading.

Same care. Weekly wash and 303 treatment that I allow to cure before doing
anything (about 2 hours in the sun). Found or learned of 303 from
the area Michelin rep when trying to get warranty on the 3rd set of
BFG 33/12.5R15LT load range C's with blisters poking up from the root
of the tread area...THIRD SET... His first question was did I use
ArmorAll...nope and he then said to use 303, which I never heard of

No cracks of any kind, anywhere.

Now for the 1980 C10 Silverado. The Timberline 33/12.5R15LT load range C has
cracks on the tread root, between tread lugs. No cracks on the sidewall.
The Yokohama 33/12.5R15LT load range C has NO cracks of any kind. This truck is
driven even less than the Sub. Mainly for street sweeping every other week and
taking care of properties (gravel, dirt, fertilizer, wood pellets, firewood, etc)

The C10 is parked within 20 feet of the Sub and is also not garaged

Same 303 treatment, same wash every Sunday morning, same driver, etc

Odyssey is parked next to the Sub and it's Michelin's that came with it (bought
used) had started micro cracks on the sidewalls. Falken's that replaced them did
NOT crack and wore out. New Coopers have about 10K and look like new.

Live in The San Francisco Bayarea. Sun is not a problem. Three major airports
and several highways, but only the Timberline & Michelin's have cracked

Michelin's were fine till around the mid/late 90's and assume they changed their
formulation or processes, or both

First set of LTX-AT's on the C10 were fine. First set of LTX-AT's on the Sub
were fine and went 40K very harsh miles....then something happened with the
3rd set on the C10 and 2nd set on the Sub...they cracked very soon. All in the
same town, same driver, etc, etc

Yes, drive very, very hard and get sideways often on purpose just because. The
Duelers were very 'soft' at first, but they are now going or looks like they will
go farther than the Michelins

Am very impressed with the Copper's on the Odyssey and will try their 'LT' class
when the trucks need tires (not soon)

Since I go through lots of tires and have lots of vehicles... Cover a
of ground and know that this is mostly with the Michelin's

Also have played with enough tires while racing, working my way through college
as a tire monkey in one of the very high end dealers in town, designed some test
stands for DOT to test tires. We supplied the controls and used a locomotive traction
electric motor. They/we burned up dozens of tires during the certification and
acceptance testing (still have that burnt rubber smell in my nose some times)

Thank you for your insight and no criticism taken about the pictures. Barely got those off before the camera went dead.

Anyway, bottom line. IYHO what causes these types of failures?

It is construction, contamination or materials?

To me it looks like they are not using enough "glue" to stick things together. IOW's all of the plys are separating from each other and the casing. The plys and casing still look good to me but they are separating. Michelin had huge problems with this X Radial make of tire doing this. This is why to this day I won't put a Michelin tire even on my wheel barrel.

I was told in the cap world, this is caused by contamination. What about new tire world?

Turtle n Peeps wrote:
Here is the picture of my infamous Michelin tire. Sorry about the quality. I was fighting dead batteries in the camera.


{Deleted images to save space}

This is typical for these tires. No cuts, no damage; just junk tires that blow in the driveway.......

So here is what I see in those photos. The flap of sidewall rubber is likely separated off the ply cords at the junction between the ply cords and the sidewall rubber. It doesn't penetrate the cords - it is off the cords.

Yes, it is not a cut - it is torn.

But if you were to peel the flap of sidewall rubber back, you would find it cleanly detached from the ply cords - reflecting the fact that these would be different layers in the building process.

It is also likely that the separation extends to and around the belt edges - which would be revealed when that flap of sidewall rubber is peeled back.

This is the result of a belt edge separation that has worked its way down the sidewall and the centrifugal forces eventually caused the sidewall rubber to fail. Since it doesn't have ply cords attached, the tear is not constrained to follow the ply cords - that is, in the radial direction.

Sorry, but that is not at all like the earlier photo - where there doesn't appear to be any separation UNDER either edge of the split.

Needless to say, there is only so much that can be determined from photos - especially photos taken by folks who are not aware of what to look for - what photos would be helpful. Please note, this is not a criticism, just a comment. If I didn't know what to look for, I would just take some random photos and they may or may not reveal the important stuff.

I hope this helps. Just be aware that this is the sort of thing that both the tire manufacturers and NHTSA would look at. The fact that those sets of photos show something different is as revealing as the fact that they are failures.

Question regarding the "age" of the tires as you state... Is the age you state based upon when you purchased the tires or RV? Or is it based upon the age in the DOT code stamped on the sidewall?

Bull Rider wrote:
Terryallan:

The tires that failed last year were four years old, not seven. The original tires went three years, the Hercules (the second set) went four and all four failed. Hercules thought they were defective or they wouldn't have written a check to compensate.

The spare tire that blew up two days ago was seven years old with a total of 50 miles of use. No checking or sidewall cracking, check the photos.

The spare tire on my wife's car is 12 years old. I've had tires last for many years without blowing up while sitting still. I guess I don't see your logic here.

Olde Volks Place wrote:
CapriRacer, as a tire Expert could you tell us if tires are still made from REAL rubber today like they where years ago or are they mostly man made compounds like rubber.

if they are compounds do they have any real rubber in the mixture and if so what is the ratio of real rubber to man made ? like 10% real 90% MM

Thanks

I am assuming you mean natural rubber and synthetic rubber. Natural rubber is the kind they get from tapping trees. The problem here is contamination. If you think that tapping trees would result in bark, insects, leaves, and other foreign materials, you would be right. As a result they grade natural according to how it was processed and how much contaminants it has. But natural rubber is one kind of rubber - polyisoprene

Synthetic polyisoprene is made from petroleum. Chemically, it is identical to natural rubber, and it has no contaminants, making it a bit better suited for critical applications.

- BUT -

There are other types of rubber - styrene-butadiene, isobutylene, for example - and they have different properties than polyisoprene - some of those properties are quite useful in tires. So typically, tires use certain rubber blends in certain parts of the tire and other rubber blends in other parts to get the properties needed for the part of the tire they are being used. The desired properties are identified independent of the type of rubber, by a series of laboratory tests.

So natural rubber is not naturally superior to synthetic rubber. (Ha, ha, ha. I crack myself up!!) It has the benefit of being competitively priced with synthetic polyisoprene, so many tire manufacturers have mixing formulas that take advantage of the price difference between the two. So the ratio of natural to synthetic varies according to the price split.

Rubber chemists have done an excellent job of developing these mixing formulae, and the performance of tires does not follow the cost of natural rubber.

Recently, China has entered the market (actually many markets) in a big way and has been buying up the supplies of natural rubber - driving up the price. They have also been buying petrochemicals - driving those prices up as well. I don't know what the current price split is like, but because both commodities have been impacted this has had a huge impact on the manufacturing costs of tires - and those have been reflected in the price of tires.

Here is the picture of my infamous Michelin tire. Sorry about the quality. I was fighting dead batteries in the camera.






This is typical for these tires. No cuts, no damage; just junk tires that blow in the driveway.


I have a friend that has worked in the tire business for over 20 years and he tells me Michelin tires blow like that all the time. You can't see in the picture but the tire has around 60 to 75% of the tread left.