What is included in Gross Vehicle Weight

Enough! Thread closed.
Barney

JIMNLIN wrote:
LOl...lots of second guessing opinion there Ron about the post and the BC members intent or my intent. Nice try tho. There was no conspiracy.
You and I have been through this before and it seems important to you to discredit others opinions that differ from yours. The BC poster said what he said.

Jim, I don't see a need to discredit you. But, I do see a need to separate conjecture from fact. And, I do see a need to present all pertinent information.

Our difference of opinion in this thread stems from your response to this post by kaydeejay. Your response is in this post.

You attempted to discredit kaydeejay -- "

A BC regulation ?? LOL. To bad some folks don't look at BC real weight regulations.

"
And, you attempted to discredit the BC Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure FAQ Sheet -- '

The clicky is a simple BC info sheet and has no enforceable weight codes or regulations in it. It says this at the bottom of the info sheet:
"Information on this Info sheet is subject to change without notice. In the event of conflict with this Info Sheet and the Motor Vehicle Act and Regulations, the Acts and Regulations shall apply."

'

In fact, B.C. Reg. 26/58 -- Motor Vehicle Act -- MOTOR VEHICLE ACT REGULATIONS states in Overload prohibition 19.11 that vehicles manufactured after January 1, 2001, OR vehicles having a gross vehicle weight rating of 5 500 kg or more shall not have a gross vehicle weight which exceeds the gross vehicle weight rating for that vehicle as specified by the vehicle manufacturer.

So, although kaydeejay didn't cite the actual regulations, the document he cited is consistent with the "BC real weight regulations".

JIMNLIN wrote:
As we all know sometimes we get better info on size and weights issues from actual dot enforcement officers themselves as the poster from BC did than a 1-800 call to a person on the phone. My paste and copy was the gist of his findings. Interpret any way you like. ---

I interpret your paste and copy as being only part of what dukesofhazzardcounty posted in regard to his phone contacts with a DOT person.
After his first phone call, he reported the DOT person said you cannot go over the GVWR.
After his second phone call to a "dot worker", he reported a second DOT opinion.
Many times since 2011, you have cited a portion of the second opinion while never mentioning the first opinion.
We have no way of knowing if the second opinion was correct.
Fortunately, we don't need to rely on these anecdotal phone call reports because the correct information is contained in the B.C. Motor Vehicle Act Regulations as stated above.

JIMNLIN wrote:
---His input from the dot guy mirrors what other BC members have said about registering their trucks at "a" GVWR which may or may not be the door post GVWR.

He had input from two "dot guys".
The first input, which you did not cite, said the GVW cannot exceed the manufacturer's GVWR -- in accordance with the Motor Vehicle Act Regulations.
The second input, which you did cite, was not in accordance with the Motor Vehicle Act Regulations.
And, whether you can register a truck at "a" GVWR which may or may not be the door post GVWR, is not what kaydeejay was talking about.

JIMNLIN wrote:
Division 19 — Miscellaneous is a sort of catch all that includes issues such as livestock transport on certain highways/permits/use of flashing lites/weight scales/tow dolly restrictions/and others.

If this is an attempt to discredit the provisions of Division 19, it's not gonna work -- anyone who wants to read the text can do so.
The fact that it covers the items you listed, does not diminish the validity of the other sections.

JIMNLIN wrote:
19.05 weight scales; no question here the vehicles gross weight can be the sum of its axle weights.
(3) The gross weight of any tandem axles and the gross weight of any group of axles shall be the sum of the gross axle weights of all the axles comprising the tandem axles or the group of axles, as the case may be.
(4) The gross weight of any vehicle or combination of vehicles shall be the sum of the individual gross axle weights of all the axles of the vehicle or combination of vehicles.
en. B.C. Reg. 68/71, s. 5; am. B.C. Regs. 413/97, App. 1, s. 11; 135/2003, s. 6.

Jim, it's not a matter of gross vehicle weight CAN BE the sum of the individual axle weights. Gross vehicle weight IS the sum of the individual axle weights -- it's the definition.
However, contrary to what you seem to want people to believe, for most vehicles used for recreational towing, gross vehicle weight rating IS NOT the sum of the individual gross axle weight ratings.

JIMNLIN wrote:
Confusing ?? Not really. However it would be one reason the poster from BC made a 1-800 call to dot which lead to more confusion and then contacted a actual dot person for their interpretation.

How do we know the second response was more authoritative than the first? Oh, wait a minute, we don't need to rely on the anecdotal phone calls.
The correct information is found in the Motor Vehicle Act Regulations.

Ron

kaydeejay wrote:
.........

Interestingly enough, it was theoretically possible for a customer to order such a basic vehicle, but I would need to understand why anyone would want to!

I've owned a couple of these types of rigs. My 2000 c2500 has payload with in 300 lbs of my 05 dually crew can. 3800 vs 4100. If I used the axel wt ratings, the dually would be more in the 1000-2000 lbs payload difference.

Which leads to what a state/Provence follows for registered gvw(r)....some the base gvw, others the sum of the axels. My state washington, ALL trucks be them personal or commercial have a wt tag om 2000 lb increments sold to them. The minimum one can have is 1.5 times manufacture empty wt, ie weight Keith is talking about, times 1.5 to the next highest ton. A 7500 lbs rig, like my 05 dually would be licensed to 12K lbs. Some SW 25/35 series trucks ALSO weigh this much. They too would be licensed to 12K lbs. AND, BE LEGAL to 12K lbs too! Door sticker be danged! I even bought and upped gvwr for my dually to 14K. My c2500 on the other hand, being as it weighs 4800 empty, due to all of 3 chargable added wt options, auto trans, hitch and trim rings on rims, is licensed at 8000 lbs. I am ONLY legal to 8000 lbs, the 8600 door sticker means squat! If I am at 8600 lbs when pulled over, I am over wt, and may get ticketed accordingly!

Payload as noted, should be the difference between the truck as manufactured, setup etc, wt, from the gvwr. My trucks typically have pipe racks or equal on them, so in reality, my c2500 weighs in empty with no one in it at 5100 lbs, so 300 lbs less than the door sticker to work with!

My MDT on the other hand, came as an incomplete vehicle, its finale tare is based on what kind of bed I put on it. I can also put on tag or drop axles, to get more gvwr than the door sticker says it should be. It is up to the company that puts the bed on, to certify the final gvwr, and payload. The payload and tare will be based on a drive thru a certified scale after manufacture.

MANY ways to get these numbers.

Marty

Jim, if you are going to present something as a quote, you should include the entire text of the message -- or at least, indicate that you have intentionally left something out.

LOl...lots of second guessing opinion there Ron about the post and the BC members intent or my intent. Nice try tho. There was no conspiracy.
You and I have been through this before and it seems important to you to discredit others opinions that differ from yours. The BC poster said what he said.
As we all know sometimes we get better info on size and weights issues from actual dot enforcement officers themselves as the poster from BC did than a 1-800 call to a person on the phone. My paste and copy was the gist of his findings. Interpret any way you like.
His input from the dot guy mirrors what other BC members have said about registering their trucks at "a" GVWR which may or may not be the door post GVWR.
....................................................

Division 19 — Miscellaneous is a sort of catch all that includes issues such as livestock transport on certain highways/permits/use of flashing lites/weight scales/tow dolly restrictions/and others.

19.05 weight scales; no question here the vehicles gross weight can be the sum of its axle weights.
(3) The gross weight of any tandem axles and the gross weight of any group of axles shall be the sum of the gross axle weights of all the axles comprising the tandem axles or the group of axles, as the case may be.
(4) The gross weight of any vehicle or combination of vehicles shall be the sum of the individual gross axle weights of all the axles of the vehicle or combination of vehicles.
en. B.C. Reg. 68/71, s. 5; am. B.C. Regs. 413/97, App. 1, s. 11; 135/2003, s. 6.

Confusing ?? Not really. However it would be one reason the poster from BC made a 1-800 call to dot which lead to more confusion and then contacted a actual dot person for their interpretation.

JIMNLIN wrote:
The BC GVWR mis information thing gets discussed often.

This RV.net member from BC got confirmation from his dot guy on the subject;

dukesofhazzardcounty

British Columbia

langley

--------------------------------------------------------------------
well another phone call to a dot worker that I personally know,
here it is, go by the gross axle weight rating front and rear, tire ratings, and then make sure you are not over your licensed gross rating, ex. mine is 4600kg, he said after you get the camper and if you are under on the axle ratings and tire ratings but over the licensed gross rating, up your insurance to be over your total gross, this is the cash grab part of it, you are paying more for fixing the roads etc. the more weight you are. so there you have it from the bc dot."

Jim, if you are going to present something as a quote, you should include the entire text of the message -- or at least, indicate that you have intentionally left something out.

The entire text of the post by dukesofhazzardcounty has a final sentence which you omitted.
The post ends with:
QUOTE
---so there you have it from the bc dot. now I am going to the scale, also if they try to say you are over the manufacturers gvwr you tell you have made modifications and that no longer applies ex. airbags, extra leafs,etc. hope this helps out others as well. off to the scale
UNQUOTE
The reference to "over the manufacturers gvwr" suggests that there just might be a weight regulation tied to the manufacturer's GVWR.

In case anyone caught the reference to "another phone call" -- the post immediately preceding the post which JIMNLIN "quoted" shows dukesofhazzardcounty made a previous call to another DOT worker. The post states:
QUOTE
okay so just got off the phone with dot, the answer is you cannot go over any of the trucks posted ratings, tire ratings, gawr, or the gvwr, that sure doesn't leave much room for a camper, I am so confused, going to go weigh the truck now, they said come down and weigh it there then you have all the accurate #'s will post when I am done. only problem is I have a canopy on. (bold added for emphasis)
UNQUOTE

From the first call, the unequivocal answer from B.C. DOT was you cannot go over the GVWR.
The second call presents what seems to be a way of getting around the GVWR regulation alluded to in the last sentence.
So, how are we to know which of the responses attributed to B.C. DOT is correct?
And, does the second call actually say there is no GVWR regulation?

Fortunately, we don't need to rely on these anecdotal phone calls for official information.
B.C. MOTOR VEHICLE ACT REGULATIONS clearly state:
QUOTE
Overload prohibition
19.11 (1) Unless operating under the provisions of an overload permit issued under the Commercial Transport Act, no person shall operate or cause to be operated a vehicle that is loaded in such a manner that the gross weight carried by any axle exceeds the gross weight rating for that axle as specified by the vehicle manufacturer, or the gross vehicle weight exceeds the gross vehicle weight rating for that vehicle as specified by the vehicle manufacturer.

(2) The weight distribution of a bus shall be such that not less than 25 per cent of the gross vehicle weight is on the front axle when measured on level ground.

(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to a vehicle

(a) manufactured before January 1, 2001, and

(b) having a gross vehicle weight rating of 5 500 kg or less.

(4) and (5) Repealed. [B.C. Reg. 26/58, s. 19.11 (5).]

[en. B.C. Reg. 448/87, s. 3; am. B.C. Regs. 132/89; 29/97, s. 1; 40/2000, s. 1.]
UNQUOTE

It's hard to mis-interpret the phrase "---or the gross vehicle weight exceeds the gross vehicle weight rating for that vehicle as specified by the vehicle manufacturer."

Ron

Gross Vehicle Weight is EVERYTHING. It is the weight of the vehicle and everything it is carrying, right now. It changes as you put stuff in and take stuff out. It changes as you burn fuel and add fuel.

Gross Vehicle Weight Rating is the maximum gross vehicle weight allowed by the manufacturer (or a taxing entity, because sometimes that is the purpose of the number).

The way you ask the question makes me think you are asking about some other weight rating or standard for weight measurement.

Very well put and add that many then use derogatories both to defuse and
reduce validity of the advice they DO NOT want to hear

"Weight Police" is the most common...there is NO policing on these
freebie forum...just advice and opinion...

Add the OEMs do NOT help this with their multitude of "half ton"
models. Spanning from +6K GVWR up to just under 8K GVWR...which
"half ton are you talking about" is my first question...

LarryJM wrote:

marquette wrote:
i agree with the adage always bring more truck than you need but knowing when you have more than you need shouldn't always be measured by bring a F550 to tow your lawn mower.

Ludicrous statements such as the above along with those like "people think you need a dually to tow a rowboat", etc. in my mind immediately puts such posters in the unable or unwilling to engage in any meaningful discussion of the topic at hand. I have never or at least almost never have seen such statements by anyone whose opinion I would even consider worthy of consideration. Like it or not IMO the facts are a very large percentage of 1/2T category of TV are simply inadequate to use for a majority of full profile TTs that many here would like to have. This is self evident in the almost exclusive subject of weight issues discussed are concerning the 1/2T category of TVs. You seldom see this as an issue with the 3/4T or 1T TVs with those generally limited to 5er pin weights where there can be issues with 3/4T TVs. People again IMO are unrealistic in they want an everyday driver/grocery getter that can double as a TV for these 31' and larger TTs. These two scenarios are in a large part not compatible with each other and often fall into the "have your cake and eat it to" dilemna.

Larry

Before we travel too far down the road of overloading a 1/2 ton i want to thank the posters that helped clear up the what's included question. I now understand that the driver is included on tow capacity and not on cargo capacity which lead to my confusion. Fuel is not included in either. Factory options are already accounted for on the door sticker. And if I understand correctly it doesn't make any difference what size TV I am looking at the towing capacity or cargo weight will be calculated the same. 150 lb driver and fuel can overload a 1/2 ton or 1 ton if you don't subtract them in the cargo weight.

This snippet simply says the GVW is equal to the sum of the individual GAWs -- something I hope we all can agree on.
Subsection (4) simply specifies how a peace officer shall calculate the GVW or the GCW.
The snippet has nothing to do with GVWR or GAWR.

It has all to do with the trucks GAWRs and how much GVWR a BC truck owner may register his truck at.

This explains what gaw implies. Manufactures rated axle capacity = a GAWR. And the code it the snippet means the sum of the GAWRs may be the vehicles GVWR.

Maximum gross weight for axles
A person must not, without an overload permit, drive or operate on a highway a vehicle loaded or configured so that

(a) the gross weight on an axle exceeds the manufacturer's rated capacity for that axle or for the brake or suspension system with which the axle is equipped, ..

The BC GVWR mis information thing gets discussed often.

This RV.net member from BC got confirmation from his dot guy on the subject;

dukesofhazzardcounty

British Columbia

langley

--------------------------------------------------------------------
well another phone call to a dot worker that I personally know,
here it is, go by the gross axle weight rating front and rear, tire ratings, and then make sure you are not over your licensed gross rating, ex. mine is 4600kg, he said after you get the camper and if you are under on the axle ratings and tire ratings but over the licensed gross rating, up your insurance to be over your total gross, this is the cash grab part of it, you are paying more for fixing the roads etc. the more weight you are. so there you have it from the bc dot."

marquette wrote:
......Interestingly it sounds like door stickers are individually calculated based on the build sheet of a particular vehicle taking into account all factory installed options. So in theory a vehicle with out a tow package would have more cargo capacity than one with a towing package. The larger battery,radiator, alternator, hitch, etc would increase curb weight and lessen the difference between the Gross weight and Curb weight. .............

This is not coincidence, it is a Federal requirement. The weights are calculated prior to build as labels are typically installed prior to assembly completion.
Your observations about capacity are absolutely correct, which is why a mechanically identical regular cab/short box/2WD can Tow and Haul more than its Crew Cab/Long box/4WD counterpart.
Typically also known as the 3/4 ton Crew Cab diesel disadvantage.