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Nomad III

May 06, 2017

Autoformer test a "back yard" report

Hi all,

The equipment:

Sola Basic 4000 autoformer PF 0.98

Magnum hybrid 3012 inverter PF corrected

1200 watt water heater

325 watt absorption fridge

13500 BTU Dometic ducted roof air with a manual thermostat. PR unknown.

A splendidly weak 15 amp shore power connection, with a 20 foot #12 cord to the RV and a dog bone adapter 15 to 30 amp. I know from previous visits that voltage drop is excessive.

The parameters:

The Magnum was set to limit the 15 amp circuit to 80% (12 amps).

At no load, the voltage was 118. Adding a load of 325 watts from the fridge caused this to drop down to 116.

Turning on the water heater (1200 watts), while running the fridge, without the autoformer resulted in 98 volts inside the RV. It did not "trigger" the load support feature of the Magnum. This, I thought, provided a "test bed" for the devices.

Adding the autoformer caused voltage inside the RV to bounce up to 114 volts. Wattage inside the RV was 1525. Demand on the shore power side of the autoformer was about 16.9 amps (measured with a kill-a-watt meter). Voltage on the shore side was a scant 95 volts. I reset the Magnum to only allow 11 amps to be drawn. Voltage inside the RV did not sag.

For the next part of the test I tried the roof air conditioner. The start up surge caused the Magnum to go into load support and knocked the shore power "off line".

The Magnum was running in inverter mode with a draw of 175 amps on the battery bank.

After the usual connection to shore power time delay, the Magnum then allowed the shore power to pass through. Even though the watt meter showed only 951 watts, the Magnum continued to do load support at 33 amps.

I deliberately moved the thermostat up until the air conditioner cycled off. I was taken by surprize when the air conditioner restarted after just over 1 minute.

Then I turned the load support feature of the Magnum off. When I tried to start the roof air, the Magnum disconnected the shore power and went into its time delay. Five minutes later, I tried a second time, turning on the fan on the air conditioner first. The Magnum again disconnected the shore power.

I have ordered a Micro Air to lower the start up surge. The MA starts the fan first and then has a 5 second delay. If the air conditioner "short cycles" the Micro Air forces the compressor to wait 4 minutes to avoid "high head" starts. This "wait" is enabled even when there is no shore power.

I don't understand why a "motor" load of 951 watts would cause load support to become active, while the water heater plus fridge totaling 1525 watts did not. Could this be a power factor issue?

I may continue this test tomorrow, by passing the Magnum and using just the Sola Basic. Obviously, I won't attempt to run the roof air on this weak shore power connection.

23 Replies

pianotuna
Nomad III
Jun 18, 2017
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Hi redracer,

I was rereading this thread to share part of it on facebook. Voltage for the 1887 watts was 96.5. That yields an amperage draw of 19.55 amps or 24% over the 15 amp rating.

myredracer wrote:

I wouldn't say 1887 watts is running a 15 amp breaker hard (if at 120 volts). A breaker can run 100 percent of it's rating continuously without tripping since breakers have an inverse time-current characteristic as can be seen in the standard NEMA graph on this web page.. At 10 percent over a 15 amp breaker rating at 120 volts (1980 watts), it could hold for at least 10 min. before the thermal element trips it. (It's the brief momentary current on a motor startup that can cause the "instantaneous" magnetic element to trip.)
pianotuna
Nomad III
May 07, 2017
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Hi Redracer,

I know that the Sola Basic unit which costs 50% of what the Hughes unit does has two layers of 10 volt boost (110 and 100) and one layer of buck -10 volts (135).

It has no surge capabilities.

I believe Canadian Rainbirds had a unit that kept voltage rock solid--but I can't find the thread on it.
myredracer
Explorer II
May 07, 2017
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pianotuna wrote:
myredracer,
My comfort zone for voltage is no lower than 107.

I can't argue with that! Coleman is okay with 103.5 and I've seen one of the other AC manufacturers say 105V. Our PI EMS cuts out at 104V which I don't like and wish it could be reset higher. It's the SurgeGuard that cuts out at 102V that isn't great.

I've been wondering for some time if there's a better autoformer than the Hughes which we have. I looked at specs on a Sola constant voltage transformer once and technically would be excellent until I saw that it costs something like $4K and weighs about 200 lbs...
pianotuna
Nomad III
May 07, 2017
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Hi MrWizard,

You remember correctly! They want + or - five volts for the training period.

MrWizard wrote:
well IIRC, the training period of the micro-aair is done on reliable shore power

trouble some power will possibly screw up the learning
MrWizard
Moderator
May 06, 2017
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well IIRC, the training period of the micro-aair is done on reliable shore power

trouble some power will possibly screw up the learning
pianotuna
Nomad III
May 06, 2017
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myredracer,

My comfort zone for voltage is no lower than 107.

As day warmed up, the 15 amp circuit gave up the ghost with only the roof air running. I did not think to check the wattage, unfortunately.

I've personally had 30 amp in line female Cameco outlets melt when subjected to low voltage on a 15 amp supply. So my comfort zone is 12 amps or 80% of the 15.

I'm often at friends homes and burning up one of their outlets would be something to avoid.

Again, this particular shore power is weak as water, which is why I chose it for the "test bed".
pianotuna
Nomad III
May 06, 2017
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Here is the graph mentioned above.
myredracer
Explorer II
May 06, 2017
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Inrush current (LRA) for RV AC units is approx. 5- 6 times running current (FLA) as can be seen from this Coleman power saver model data for example which shows 58.4 LRA and 11.2 FLA. These figures will be at the nameplate voltage of 115. The figures show running watts of 1190 @ 115V and 1440 @ 103.5V. Power factor is 0.92 @ 115V but they don't give you the FLA @ 103.5V to be able to calc. the PF.

Power in minus autoformer losses = power out per ohms law. If voltage goes down on the output, current has to go up on the input and then the increased current on the input creates further voltage drop. AC units also draw more current as voltage goes down. For a momentary inrush current of nearly 60 amps (for the Coleman Mach 3 13.5 btuh above), who knows what the autoformer is doing and what the voltage & current are like at the AC terminals? Then add the hybrid inverter and what is it doing on the AC startup? A 'scope is needed to know exactly what is happening. As noted, a hard-start capacitor *might* help for the AC unit but who knows. I wonder what an EMS would do if also added into the equation on the AC startup? I've never been able to find a graph of current versus voltage as it drops for an RV AC unit but the Coleman info. above shows the current to be 13.9 amps @ 103.5V which isn't really much higher than the FLA @ 115V and I always thought it was more.

RV AC unit manufacturers spec a min. 20 amp breaker to ensure they will start and a min. of #12 wire to reduce voltage drop on startup and running. Some may find that they can get their AC to start and run fine on a 15 amp circuit, but if voltage drops enough and often enough, over time can damage an AC and cause premature failure.

I wouldn't say 1887 watts is running a 15 amp breaker hard (if at 120 volts). A breaker can run 100 percent of it's rating continuously without tripping since breakers have an inverse time-current characteristic as can be seen in the standard NEMA graph on this web page.. At 10 percent over a 15 amp breaker rating at 120 volts (1980 watts), it could hold for at least 10 min. before the thermal element trips it. (It's the brief momentary current on a motor startup that can cause the "instantaneous" magnetic element to trip.)
pianotuna
Nomad III
May 06, 2017
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Hi MrWizard,

Yup the 951 watts is post Magnum so would include the energy being drawn from the battery bank. Only the air conditioner was running. I'll hope that the Micro Air unit will prevent the Magnum from disconnecting the shore power by lowering the start up surge.

Although PF is not an issue with the autoformer, amperage is. At the lowest voltage measured 95 on the shore power side, 1425 watts becomes 15 amps. I've measured as high as 1900 with ONLY the roof air running.

MrWizard wrote:

You measured 951 at the a.c. Coming from the magnum, including the 33 amps load support?

, if so your saying shore power was only 500+ watts, because the magnum was supplying 400+ watts, that is curious
But still over 1000va being used by the ac,
Your awful close to the power limit you set the magnum to use
I'm sure this is why magnum was inverting, if it did not invert the usage would exceed its own calculated VA for amps used with associated voltage drop off incoming voltage
MrWizard
Moderator
May 06, 2017
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Ok PF correction for the autoformer and the magnum
But the A/C is not PF corrected

You measured 951 at the a.c. Coming from the magnum, including the 33 amps load support?

, if so your saying shore power was only 500+ watts, because the magnum was supplying 400+ watts, that is curious
But still over 1000va being used by the ac,
Your awful close to the power limit you set the magnum to use
I'm sure this is why magnum was inverting, if it did not invert the usage would exceed its own calculated VA for amps used with associated voltage drop off incoming voltage

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The equipment:

Sola Basic 4000 autoformer PF 0.98

Magnum hybrid 3012 inverter PF corrected

1200 watt water heater

325 watt absorption fridge

13500 BTU Dometic ducted roof air with a manual thermostat. PR unknown.

A splendidly weak 15 amp shore power connection, with a 20 foot #12 cord to the RV and a dog bone adapter 15 to 30 amp. I know from previous visits that voltage drop is excessive.

The parameters:

The Magnum was set to limit the 15 amp circuit to 80% (12 amps).

At no load, the voltage was 118. Adding a load of 325 watts from the fridge caused this to drop down to 116.

Turning on the water heater (1200 watts), while running the fridge, without the autoformer resulted in 98 volts inside the RV. It did not \"trigger\" the load support feature of the Magnum. This, I thought, provided a \"test bed\" for the devices.

Adding the autoformer caused voltage inside the RV to bounce up to 114 volts. Wattage inside the RV was 1525. Demand on the shore power side of the autoformer was about 16.9 amps (measured with a kill-a-watt meter). Voltage on the shore side was a scant 95 volts. I reset the Magnum to only allow 11 amps to be drawn. Voltage inside the RV did not sag.

For the next part of the test I tried the roof air conditioner. The start up surge caused the Magnum to go into load support and knocked the shore power \"off line\".

The Magnum was running in inverter mode with a draw of 175 amps on the battery bank.

After the usual connection to shore power time delay, the Magnum then allowed the shore power to pass through. Even though the watt meter showed only 951 watts, the Magnum continued to do load support at 33 amps.

I deliberately moved the thermostat up until the air conditioner cycled off. I was taken by surprize when the air conditioner restarted after just over 1 minute.

Then I turned the load support feature of the Magnum off. When I tried to start the roof air, the Magnum disconnected the shore power and went into its time delay. Five minutes later, I tried a second time, turning on the fan on the air conditioner first. The Magnum again disconnected the shore power.

I have ordered a Micro Air to lower the start up surge. The MA starts the fan first and then has a 5 second delay. If the air conditioner \"short cycles\" the Micro Air forces the compressor to wait 4 minutes to avoid \"high head\" starts. This \"wait\" is enabled even when there is no shore power.

I don't understand why a \"motor\" load of 951 watts would cause load support to become active, while the water heater plus fridge totaling 1525 watts did not. Could this be a power factor issue?

I may continue this test tomorrow, by passing the Magnum and using just the Sola Basic. Obviously, I won't attempt to run the roof air on this weak shore power connection.","body@stringLength":"2996","rawBody":"Hi all,

The equipment:

Sola Basic 4000 autoformer PF 0.98

Magnum hybrid 3012 inverter PF corrected

1200 watt water heater

325 watt absorption fridge

13500 BTU Dometic ducted roof air with a manual thermostat. PR unknown.

A splendidly weak 15 amp shore power connection, with a 20 foot #12 cord to the RV and a dog bone adapter 15 to 30 amp. I know from previous visits that voltage drop is excessive.

The parameters:

The Magnum was set to limit the 15 amp circuit to 80% (12 amps).

At no load, the voltage was 118. Adding a load of 325 watts from the fridge caused this to drop down to 116.

Turning on the water heater (1200 watts), while running the fridge, without the autoformer resulted in 98 volts inside the RV. It did not \"trigger\" the load support feature of the Magnum. This, I thought, provided a \"test bed\" for the devices.

Adding the autoformer caused voltage inside the RV to bounce up to 114 volts. Wattage inside the RV was 1525. Demand on the shore power side of the autoformer was about 16.9 amps (measured with a kill-a-watt meter). Voltage on the shore side was a scant 95 volts. I reset the Magnum to only allow 11 amps to be drawn. Voltage inside the RV did not sag.

For the next part of the test I tried the roof air conditioner. The start up surge caused the Magnum to go into load support and knocked the shore power \"off line\".

The Magnum was running in inverter mode with a draw of 175 amps on the battery bank.

After the usual connection to shore power time delay, the Magnum then allowed the shore power to pass through. Even though the watt meter showed only 951 watts, the Magnum continued to do load support at 33 amps.

I deliberately moved the thermostat up until the air conditioner cycled off. I was taken by surprize when the air conditioner restarted after just over 1 minute.

Then I turned the load support feature of the Magnum off. When I tried to start the roof air, the Magnum disconnected the shore power and went into its time delay. Five minutes later, I tried a second time, turning on the fan on the air conditioner first. The Magnum again disconnected the shore power.

I have ordered a Micro Air to lower the start up surge. The MA starts the fan first and then has a 5 second delay. If the air conditioner \"short cycles\" the Micro Air forces the compressor to wait 4 minutes to avoid \"high head\" starts. This \"wait\" is enabled even when there is no shore power.

I don't understand why a \"motor\" load of 951 watts would cause load support to become active, while the water heater plus fridge totaling 1525 watts did not. Could this be a power factor issue?

I may continue this test tomorrow, by passing the Magnum and using just the Sola Basic. Obviously, I won't attempt to run the roof air on this weak shore power 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text-transform: none;\n\n &:hover {\n outline: 5px auto -webkit-focus-ring-color;\n outline-offset: -2px;\n }\n }\n }\n }\n }\n }\n}\n\n.footer-terms {\n display: flex;\n flex-direction: column;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n padding: $theme-space-small 0;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n padding: 0;\n }\n\n > .row {\n padding-bottom: $theme-space-small;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n padding-bottom: $theme-space-base;\n }\n\n &.footer-terms-order-1 {\n order: 1;\n }\n\n &.footer-terms-order-2 {\n order: 2;\n }\n }\n}\n\n.footer-bottom {\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n padding-top: $theme-space-small;\n }\n\n .footer-bottom-list-center {\n display: flex;\n flex-direction: row;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n flex-wrap: wrap;\n float: none;\n margin: 0 auto;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n }\n\n li {\n display: inline;\n padding: 0 $theme-space-base;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n border-right: 1px solid $goodsam-gray-700;\n padding: 0;\n\n &:first-child a {\n padding-left: 0;\n }\n\n &:last-child {\n border-right: 0;\n\n a {\n padding-right: 0;\n }\n }\n }\n\n a {\n display: inline-block;\n font-size: $theme-type-size-small;\n padding: $theme-space-small;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: inline;\n font-size: $theme-type-size-xsmall;\n padding: 0 12px 0 $theme-space-small;\n }\n }\n }\n }\n}\n\n.copyright {\n color: $goodsam-gray-footer;\n font-size: $theme-type-size-base;\n margin-bottom: 0;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n margin-bottom: $theme-space-small;\n }\n}\n\n#gsFooterSocial,\n.gsFooterSocial {\n background: $goodsam-gray-200;\n padding: 0 calc($theme-space-small + $theme-space-xsmall);\n .footerSocialItems,\n #footerSocialItems {\n text-align: center;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 767px) {\n text-align: left;\n }\n }\n\n .footerSocialItems ul,\n #footerSocialItems ul {\n list-style-type: none;\n margin: auto;\n padding-left: 0;\n\n li {\n display: inline;\n margin: 0 $theme-space-small;\n }\n }\n}\n","texts":{"custom.footer.col01.text.01":"Home","custom.footer.col01.url.01":"https://www.goodsam.com/","custom.footer.col01.text.02":"About Us","custom.footer.col01.url.02":"https://www.goodsam.com/about/","custom.footer.col01.text.03":"Contact Us","custom.footer.col01.url.03":"https://www.goodsam.com/contact","custom.footer.col01.text.04":"FAQ","custom.footer.col01.url.04":"https://www.goodsam.com/faq/","custom.footer.col01.text.05":"Site Map","custom.footer.col01.url.05":"https://www.goodsam.com/site-map.aspx","custom.footer.col02.text.01":"Code of Conduct","custom.footer.col02.url.01":"https://www.goodsam.com/code-of-conduct.aspx","custom.footer.col02.text.02":"Affiliate Program","custom.footer.col02.url.02":"https://www.goodsam.com/affiliate/","custom.footer.col02.text.03":"Become a Good Sam Campground","custom.footer.col02.url.03":"https://www.goodsamnetwork.com/","custom.footer.col02.text.04":"Good Sam Rewards Visa","custom.footer.col02.url.04":"https://www.goodsam.com/creditcard/","custom.footer.col02.text.05":"About Marcus Lemonis","custom.footer.col02.url.05":"https://www.goodsam.com/about-marcus-lemonis/","custom.footer.col03.text.01":"RV Sales","custom.footer.col03.url.01":"https://rv.campingworld.com/","custom.footer.col03.text.02":"RV Gear","custom.footer.col03.url.02":"https://www.campingworld.com/shop/","custom.footer.col03.text.03":"RV Maintenance & Repair","custom.footer.col03.url.03":"https://rv.campingworld.com/service/","custom.footer.col03.text.04":"Good Sam Membership & Services","custom.footer.col03.url.04":"https://www.goodsam.com/","custom.footer.col03.text.05":"Campground Solutions","custom.footer.col03.url.05":"https://campgroundsolutions.goodsam.com/","custom.footer.col04.text.01":"Helpful Articles and Tips","custom.footer.col04.url.01":"https://www.goodsam.com/article","custom.footer.col05.text.01":"Good Sam Apps","custom.footer.col05.url.01":"https://www.goodsam.com/rv-camping-apps/","custom.footer.col05.text.02":"Take Good Sam apps on your next RV Trip!","custom.footer.col05.url.02":"https://www.goodsam.com/rv-camping-apps/","custom.footer.col06.text.01":"Customer Service Phone Number:","custom.footer.col06.phone.number":"866-205-7451","custom.footer.col06.text.02":"Club contact number 866-205-7451","custom.footer.col06.url.02":"tel:866-205-7451","custom.footer.row01.logo.text":"Good Sam Home","custom.footer.row01.text.01":"Blog","custom.footer.row01.url.01":"http://blog.goodsam.com/","custom.footer.row01.text.02":"Careers","custom.footer.row01.url.02":"https://www.campingworldcareers.com/","custom.footer.row01.text.03":"Contact Us","custom.footer.row01.text.toggle":"Click to expand","custom.footer.row01.text.04":"Good Sam","custom.footer.row01.url.04":"https://www.goodsam.com/contact/","custom.footer.row01.text.05":"Camping World","custom.footer.row01.url.05":"https://www.campingworld.com/contact/","custom.footer.row01.text.06":"RV Sales","custom.footer.row01.url.06":"https://rv.campingworld.com/contact","custom.footer.row02.text.01":"Privacy Policy","custom.footer.row02.url.01":"https://www.goodsam.com/privacy-policy.aspx","custom.footer.row02.text.02":"California Privacy Rights","custom.footer.row02.url.02":"https://www.goodsam.com/privacy-policy.aspx#calinevada","custom.footer.row02.text.03":"Investor Relations","custom.footer.row02.url.03":"http://investor.campingworld.com","custom.footer.row02.text.04":"Terms of Use","custom.footer.row02.url.04":"https://www.goodsam.com/terms.aspx","custom.footer.row02.text.05":"Accessibility Commitment","custom.footer.row02.url.05":"https://www.goodsam.com/accessibility-commitment.aspx","custom.footer.row02.text.06":"Team Member Assistance","custom.footer.row02.url.06":"https://www.goodsam.com/helping-hand","custom.footer.social.facebook.text":"Facebook","custom.footer.social.facebook.url":"https://www.facebook.com/GoodSam","custom.footer.social.twitter.text":"Twitter","custom.footer.social.twitter.url":"https://twitter.com/GoodSam","custom.footer.social.youtube.text":"YouTube","custom.footer.social.youtube.url":"https://www.youtube.com/user/goodsamrvers","custom.footer.social.instagram.text":"Instagram","custom.footer.social.instagram.url":"https://www.instagram.com/goodsam/?hl=en","custom.footer.social.pinterest.text":"Pinterest","custom.footer.social.pinterest.url":"https://www.pinterest.com/goodsam/","custom-community-footer-copyright.text":"© {0} Good Sam Enterprises, LLC. All rights reserved."},"defaults":{"config":{"applicablePages":[],"description":"","fetchedContent":null,"__typename":"ComponentConfiguration"},"props":[],"__typename":"ComponentProperties"},"components":[{"id":"custom.widget.CustomFooter","form":null,"config":null,"props":[],"__typename":"Component"}],"grouping":"CUSTOM","__typename":"ComponentTemplate"},"properties":{"config":{"applicablePages":[],"description":"","fetchedContent":null,"__typename":"ComponentConfiguration"},"props":[],"__typename":"ComponentProperties"},"form":null,"__typename":"Component","localOverride":false},"globalCss":{"css":".custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-wrapper_hp49n_21 {\n background: #474442;\n\n a {\n color: #dfdfdf;\n font-weight: 100;\n\n &:focus,\n &:hover {\n color: #dfdfdf;\n }\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_sr-only_hp49n_34 {\n position: absolute;\n width: 0.0625rem;\n height: 0.0625rem;\n margin: -0.0625rem;\n padding: 0;\n overflow: hidden;\n clip: rect(0, 0, 0, 0);\n border: 0;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer_hp49n_21 {\n line-height: 1.25rem;\n /* margin-left: auto;\n\tmargin-right: auto;\n\tpadding-left: $bootstrap-padding;\n\tpadding-right: $bootstrap-padding; */\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_container_hp49n_52 {\n margin-left: auto;\n margin-right: auto;\n max-width: 73.125rem;\n padding-left: 0.9375rem;\n padding-right: 0.9375rem;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_row_hp49n_60 {\n /* HOTFIX - PSDS-32115 - Remove negative margins to fix mobile display */\n\n &::after {\n clear: both;\n }\n\n &::after,\n &::before {\n content: ' ';\n display: table;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col_hp49n_74 {\n float: left;\n min-height: 0.0625rem;\n padding-left: 0.9375rem;\n padding-right: 0.9375rem;\n position: relative;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-xs-10_hp49n_82,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-sm-10_hp49n_83 {\n width: 83.33333333%;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-xs-12_hp49n_87,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-sm-4_hp49n_88,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-sm-12_hp49n_89,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-2_hp49n_90,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-8_hp49n_91,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-10_hp49n_92,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-12_hp49n_93,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-2_hp49n_94,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-8_hp49n_95,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-12_hp49n_96 {\n width: 100%;\n}\n@media screen and (min-width: 767px) {\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-2_hp49n_90 {\n width: 16.66666667%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-8_hp49n_91 {\n width: 66.66666667%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-10_hp49n_92 {\n width: 83.33333333%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-12_hp49n_93 {\n width: 100%;\n }\n}\n@media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-2_hp49n_94 {\n width: 16.66666667%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-4_hp49n_123 {\n /* faking it; should be 33.33333333% */\n width: 25%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-8_hp49n_95 {\n /* faking it; should be 66.66666667% */\n width: 75%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-10_hp49n_133 {\n width: 83.33333333%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-12_hp49n_96 {\n width: 100%;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_pull-left_hp49n_142 {\n float: left;\n width: 100%;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 767px) {\n float: none;\n width: auto;\n }\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n float: left;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_pad-bottom-20_hp49n_156 {\n padding-bottom: 1.25rem;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_pad-top-20_hp49n_160 {\n padding-top: 1.25rem;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_pad-top-30_hp49n_164 {\n padding-top: calc(0.9375rem * 2);\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_pad-top-40_hp49n_168 {\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n padding-top: 2.5rem;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_margin-left-20_hp49n_174 {\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n margin-left: 1.25rem;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_margin-top-20_hp49n_180 {\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n margin-top: 1.25rem;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_text-center_hp49n_186 {\n text-align: center;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_text-right_hp49n_190 {\n text-align: right;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_text-smaller_hp49n_194,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_text-small_hp49n_194 {\n font-size: 0.75rem;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_text-large_hp49n_199 {\n font-size: 1.25rem;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-contact_hp49n_203 {\n p {\n display: flex;\n flex-direction: row;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_text-small_hp49n_194 {\n @media screen and (max-width: 991px) {\n font-size: 1rem;\n }\n }\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_icon-gs-app_hp49n_221 {\n margin-right: 1.25rem;\n max-width: 2.375rem;\n padding-right: 0.125rem;\n padding-top: 0.125rem;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n margin-left: 8.75rem;\n margin-right: 0;\n }\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_gsi-icon-phone_hp49n_233 {\n margin-bottom: -0.125rem;\n margin-right: 0.625rem;\n max-height: 1.25rem;\n width: 1.25rem;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n margin-right: 0;\n }\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-link_hp49n_245 {\n a,\n button {\n color: #dfdfdf;\n padding: 0 0.75rem 0 0.625rem;\n }\n\n li:last-child a {\n padding-right: 0;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-top-links_hp49n_257 {\n padding-left: 0;\n list-style: none;\n display: flex;\n flex-direction: row;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n flex-wrap: wrap;\n margin-bottom: 0.625rem;\n font-size: 1rem;\n\n @media screen and (max-width: 480px) {\n flex-direction: column;\n }\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n }\n\n li {\n margin-bottom: 1.25rem;\n padding: 0 1.25rem;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n padding: 0;\n }\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-top_hp49n_257 {\n border-bottom: 2px solid #c7c7c7;\n display: block;\n margin: auto;\n padding-top: 0.625rem;\n text-align: center;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n text-align: left;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-logo_hp49n_297 {\n max-height: 3.75rem;\n max-width: 8.75rem;\n padding: 0.625rem;\n padding-left: 0;\n padding-top: 0;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-list_hp49n_305 {\n display: flex;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n list-style: none;\n margin-bottom: 0;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n float: right;\n }\n\n li {\n display: inline-block;\n padding: 0.625rem 0.3125rem;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n border-right: 1px solid #666;\n float: left;\n padding: 0;\n\n &:last-child {\n border-right: 0;\n }\n }\n\n a,\n button {\n font-size: 0.75rem;\n text-transform: uppercase;\n\n @media screen and (max-width: 768px) {\n display: block;\n padding: 0.625rem;\n }\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n font-size: 0.875rem;\n }\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_dropup_hp49n_346 {\n background-clip: padding-box;\n border: none;\n font-size: 0.875rem;\n list-style: none;\n padding-left: 0.3125rem;\n position: relative;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n float: left;\n }\n\n &:hover {\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_dropdown-menu_hp49n_359 {\n display: block;\n }\n }\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-dropup-toggle_hp49n_365 {\n background: none;\n border: 0;\n padding: 0;\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_fa-angle-up_hp49n_370 {\n /* @include li-icon ($fa-var-angle-up, $pseudo: before, $size: $theme-type-size-base, $color: $goodsam-gray-footer);\n padding-left: $theme-space-xsmall;\n padding-right: $theme-space-xsmall; */\n }\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_dropdown-menu_hp49n_359 {\n background-color: #fff;\n border-radius: 0.25rem;\n bottom: 100%;\n margin: 0.125rem 0 0;\n min-width: 10rem;\n padding: 0.3125rem 0;\n position: absolute;\n right: 0;\n\n li {\n border-right: 0;\n float: none;\n text-align: left;\n\n @media screen and (max-width: 768px) {\n display: block;\n }\n\n a {\n color: #474442;\n display: block;\n text-transform: none;\n\n &:hover {\n outline: 5px auto -webkit-focus-ring-color;\n outline-offset: -2px;\n }\n }\n }\n }\n }\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-terms_hp49n_412 {\n display: flex;\n flex-direction: column;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n padding: 0.625rem 0;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n padding: 0;\n }\n\n > .custom_widget_CustomFooter_row_hp49n_60 {\n padding-bottom: 0.625rem;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n padding-bottom: 1.25rem;\n }\n\n &.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-terms-order-1_hp49n_431 {\n 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{buildTime}"},"localOverride":false},"CachedAsset:text:en_US-components/community/KhorosLogo-1741694506000":{"__typename":"CachedAsset","id":"text:en_US-components/community/KhorosLogo-1741694506000","value":{"alt":"Powered By Khoros"},"localOverride":false},"ModerationData:moderation_data:2639635":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:2639635","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:2639635":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:36953"},"id":"message:2639635","revisionNum":1,"uid":2639635,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:TechnicalIssues"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:2639612"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:2639612"},"subject":"Re: Autoformer test a \"back yard\" report","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:2639635"},"body":"Hi redracer,

I was rereading this thread to share part of it on facebook. Voltage for the 1887 watts was 96.5. That yields an amperage draw of 19.55 amps or 24% over the 15 amp rating.

myredracer wrote:

I wouldn't say 1887 watts is running a 15 amp breaker hard (if at 120 volts). A breaker can run 100 percent of it's rating continuously without tripping since breakers have an inverse time-current characteristic as can be seen in the standard NEMA graph on this web page.. At 10 percent over a 15 amp breaker rating at 120 volts (1980 watts), it could hold for at least 10 min. before the thermal element trips it. (It's the brief momentary current on a motor startup that can cause the \"instantaneous\" magnetic element to trip.)

","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"203","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2017-06-18T10:56:29.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2017-06-18T10:56:29.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":572},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"category:RVTalk/community:feyqc97479board:TechnicalIssues/message:2639612/message:2639635","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"readOnly":false,"editFrozen":false,"body@stringLength":"915","rawBody":"Hi redracer,

I was rereading this thread to share part of it on facebook. Voltage for the 1887 watts was 96.5. That yields an amperage draw of 19.55 amps or 24% over the 15 amp rating.

myredracer wrote:

I wouldn't say 1887 watts is running a 15 amp breaker hard (if at 120 volts). A breaker can run 100 percent of it's rating continuously without tripping since breakers have an inverse time-current characteristic as can be seen in the standard NEMA graph on this web page.. At 10 percent over a 15 amp breaker rating at 120 volts (1980 watts), it could hold for at least 10 min. before the thermal element trips it. (It's the brief momentary current on a motor startup that can cause the \"instantaneous\" magnetic element to trip.)

pianotuna wrote:
myredracer,
My comfort zone for voltage is no lower than 107.

I can't argue with that! Coleman is okay with 103.5 and I've seen one of the other AC manufacturers say 105V. Our PI EMS cuts out at 104V which I don't like and wish it could be reset higher. It's the SurgeGuard that cuts out at 102V that isn't great.

I've been wondering for some time if there's a better autoformer than the Hughes which we have. I looked at specs on a Sola constant voltage transformer once and technically would be excellent until I saw that it costs something like $4K and weighs about 200 lbs...","images":{"__typename":"AssociatedImageConnection","edges":[],"totalCount":0,"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"timeToRead":1,"currentRevision":{"__ref":"Revision:revision:2639633_1"},"latestVersion":null,"messagePolicies":{"__typename":"MessagePolicies","canModerateSpamMessage":{"__typename":"PolicyResult","failureReason":{"__typename":"FailureReason","message":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","key":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","args":[]}}},"customFields":[]},"ModerationData:moderation_data:2639632":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:2639632","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:2639632":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:36953"},"id":"message:2639632","revisionNum":1,"uid":2639632,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:TechnicalIssues"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:2639612"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:2639612"},"subject":"Re: Autoformer test a \"back yard\" report","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:2639632"},"body":"Hi MrWizard,

You remember correctly! They want + or - five volts for the training period.

MrWizard wrote:
well IIRC, the training period of the micro-aair is done on reliable shore power

trouble some power will possibly screw up the learning

","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"40","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2017-05-06T15:10:48.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2017-05-06T15:10:48.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":570},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"category:RVTalk/community:feyqc97479board:TechnicalIssues/message:2639612/message:2639629","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"customFields":[],"readOnly":false,"editFrozen":false,"body@stringLength":"241","rawBody":"Here is the graph mentioned above.

MrWizard wrote:

You measured 951 at the a.c. Coming from the magnum, including the 33 amps load support?

, if so your saying shore power was only 500+ watts, because the magnum was supplying 400+ watts, that is curious
But still over 1000va being used by the ac,
Your awful close to the power limit you set the magnum to use
I'm sure this is why magnum was inverting, if it did not invert the usage would exceed its own calculated VA for amps used with associated voltage drop off incoming voltage

","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"203","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2017-05-06T10:52:08.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2017-05-06T10:52:08.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":571},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"category:RVTalk/community:feyqc97479board:TechnicalIssues/message:2639612/message:2639627","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"customFields":[],"readOnly":false,"editFrozen":false,"body@stringLength":"1077","rawBody":"Hi MrWizard,

Yup the 951 watts is post Magnum so would include the energy being drawn from the battery bank. Only the air conditioner was running. I'll hope that the Micro Air unit will prevent the Magnum from disconnecting the shore power by lowering the start up surge.

Although PF is not an issue with the autoformer, amperage is. At the lowest voltage measured 95 on the shore power side, 1425 watts becomes 15 amps. I've measured as high as 1900 with ONLY the roof air running.

MrWizard wrote:

You measured 951 at the a.c. Coming from the magnum, including the 33 amps load support?

, if so your saying shore power was only 500+ watts, because the magnum was supplying 400+ watts, that is curious
But still over 1000va being used by the ac,
Your awful close to the power limit you set the magnum to use
I'm sure this is why magnum was inverting, if it did not invert the usage would exceed its own calculated VA for amps used with associated voltage drop off incoming voltage

","images":{"__typename":"AssociatedImageConnection","edges":[],"totalCount":0,"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"timeToRead":1,"currentRevision":{"__ref":"Revision:revision:2639627_1"},"latestVersion":null,"messagePolicies":{"__typename":"MessagePolicies","canModerateSpamMessage":{"__typename":"PolicyResult","failureReason":{"__typename":"FailureReason","message":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","key":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","args":[]}}}},"ModerationData:moderation_data:2639626":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:2639626","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:2639626":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:371640"},"id":"message:2639626","revisionNum":1,"uid":2639626,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:TechnicalIssues"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:2639612"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:2639612"},"subject":"Re: Autoformer test a \"back yard\" report","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:2639626"},"body":"Ok PF correction for the autoformer and the magnum
But the A/C is not PF corrected

You measured 951 at the a.c. Coming from the magnum, including the 33 amps load support?

, if so your saying shore power was only 500+ watts, because the magnum was supplying 400+ watts, that is curious
But still over 1000va being used by the ac,
Your awful close to the power limit you set the magnum to use
I'm sure this is why magnum was inverting, if it did not invert the usage would exceed its own calculated VA for amps used with associated voltage drop off incoming voltage","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"203","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2017-05-06T10:27:56.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2017-05-06T10:27:56.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":572},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"category:RVTalk/community:feyqc97479board:TechnicalIssues/message:2639612/message:2639626","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"customFields":[],"readOnly":false,"editFrozen":false,"body@stringLength":"607","rawBody":"Ok PF correction for the autoformer and the magnum
But the A/C is not PF corrected

You measured 951 at the a.c. Coming from the magnum, including the 33 amps load support?

, if so your saying shore power was only 500+ watts, because the magnum was supplying 400+ watts, that is curious
But still over 1000va being used by the ac,
Your awful close to the power limit you set the magnum to use
I'm sure this is why magnum was inverting, if it did not invert the usage would exceed its own calculated VA for amps used with associated voltage drop off incoming voltage","images":{"__typename":"AssociatedImageConnection","edges":[],"totalCount":0,"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"timeToRead":1,"currentRevision":{"__ref":"Revision:revision:2639626_1"},"latestVersion":null,"messagePolicies":{"__typename":"MessagePolicies","canModerateSpamMessage":{"__typename":"PolicyResult","failureReason":{"__typename":"FailureReason","message":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","key":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","args":[]}}}},"CachedAsset:text:en_US-components/community/NavbarDropdownToggle-1741694506000":{"__typename":"CachedAsset","id":"text:en_US-components/community/NavbarDropdownToggle-1741694506000","value":{"ariaLabelClosed":"Press the down arrow to open the menu"},"localOverride":false},"CachedAsset:text:en_US-components/messages/EscalatedMessageBanner-1741694506000":{"__typename":"CachedAsset","id":"text:en_US-components/messages/EscalatedMessageBanner-1741694506000","value":{"escalationMessage":"Escalated to Salesforce by {username} on {date}","viewDetails":"View Details","modalTitle":"Case Details","escalatedBy":"Escalated by: ","escalatedOn":"Escalated on: ","caseNumber":"Case Number: ","status":"Status: ","lastUpdateDate":"Last Update: ","automaticEscalation":"automatic escalation","anonymous":"Anonymous"},"localOverride":false},"CachedAsset:text:en_US-components/users/UserLink-1741694506000":{"__typename":"CachedAsset","id":"text:en_US-components/users/UserLink-1741694506000","value":{"authorName":"View Profile: {author}","anonymous":"Anonymous"},"localOverride":false},"CachedAsset:text:en_US-shared/client/components/users/UserRank-1741694506000":{"__typename":"CachedAsset","id":"text:en_US-shared/client/components/users/UserRank-1741694506000","value":{"rankName":"{rankName}","userRank":"Author rank {rankName}"},"localOverride":false},"CachedAsset:text:en_US-components/messages/MessageTime-1741694506000":{"__typename":"CachedAsset","id":"text:en_US-components/messages/MessageTime-1741694506000","value":{"postTime":"Published: {time}","lastPublishTime":"Last Update: {time}","conversation.lastPostingActivityTime":"Last posting activity time: {time}","conversation.lastPostTime":"Last post time: {time}","moderationData.rejectTime":"Rejected time: {time}"},"localOverride":false},"CachedAsset:text:en_US-components/messages/MessageSolvedBadge-1741694506000":{"__typename":"CachedAsset","id":"text:en_US-components/messages/MessageSolvedBadge-1741694506000","value":{"solved":"Solved"},"localOverride":false},"CachedAsset:text:en_US-components/messages/MessageSubject-1741694506000":{"__typename":"CachedAsset","id":"text:en_US-components/messages/MessageSubject-1741694506000","value":{"noSubject":"(no subject)"},"localOverride":false},"CachedAsset:text:en_US-components/messages/MessageBody-1741694506000":{"__typename":"CachedAsset","id":"text:en_US-components/messages/MessageBody-1741694506000","value":{"showMessageBody":"Show More","mentionsErrorTitle":"{mentionsType, select, board {Board} user {User} message {Message} other {}} No Longer Available","mentionsErrorMessage":"The {mentionsType} you are trying to view has been removed from the community.","videoProcessing":"Video is being processed. 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Forum Discussion

Autoformer test a "back yard" report

heating electrically a "back yard" report

Autoformer issue

Autoformer

Hughes autoformers

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